Super Hands On Heads-up

[FearMe 0]

Hi All,Im a new poster to this forum.I have been playing O8 for a year and a half now with constant profits all along.My current aim is at NL 1/2$ blind levels.I am trying to find new interesting strong hands with which to pull players into all-in. Just recently I found out that a hand such as A668 (or any other low pair) is much stronger then A234. And so now I wish to find further hands of surprising value.Please note that the above hand (A668) loses its lead if the opponent holds any card higher then 8 instead of one of the low cards.Yours,FearMe

[FearMe 0]

Let me rephrase the question.Lets assume we are sitting in a late position and an early pos player raises in a manner that does not imply AA.If we give this player any of the following reasonable hands:A} A27Q Suited AB} A34K Suited AC} KK34 one suitLets also assume we are not holding a deep stack.Which hands should we try and pull the above player into a heads-up all-in?For instance, the super hand AA23 Ds is on average 75% favorite on the above 3. The hand A668 Ds is on average 49.1% underdog to the 3. I hope this clearifies the subject.Yours,FearMe

[FearMe 0]

Let me add another good hand.AAKQ one A suited, it is 57.1% favourite on those three hands.A23K suited A is 55.2% Fav on them.I think that the initial definition of 3 possibilities is not broad enough and is limited to very strong hands. Maybe I should add a few options, say to 7 possibilites which are not AA hands, maybe even weak AA hands.Need to think it up a bit.FM

[navybuttons 15]

the way strat forums work:you post a question or an idea that arouses debate.since you are new, i'll try to be as nice as possible. your posts seem incoherent rambling. you might want to try asking questions if you are searching for answers. but it seems as though you already have those answers. if you want to start a debate, i suggest organizing your thoughts in order that we may read them and understand them.goodluck.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Play some turbo plo8 SnGs and you should be able to figure out what hands play better SH or HU. Turbo SnGs play very much different from cash games and they work more like NLO8 I think (because I don't play NLO8 much). For exmaple, when the blinds get high and there are like 3 or players left, I will much prefer some hands such as A4JK or KKLL (two lows) than A234ds to move in preflop. Low hands suck when they can't play postflops and when the blinds and stack ratios are close.

[FearMe 0]

Hi Jacking,I play an average of 800 hands a day, probably half of that NL O8.While I understand your comparison of late game SnGs to NL, it is a game of compulsion instead of true choice. i.e. you are compelled to play decent hands due to limited chips and high blinds. This is not the case with NL cash game.NavyButtons,I am used to post in a forex forum where I bring up advanced strategies and share my thaughts with those who are interested.My questions are naturally followed by my search for an answer as I don't believe in blindly hearing other's opinion anyway.I gladly accept all comments and ideas.As for your suggestion to clearify the subject, this will be the bottom line: I want to find more all-in opporutinities other then the obvious super-hands.Good luck to you two.All my best,FearMe

[FearMe 0]

Hi again,I have come to believe there is a much broader range of hands to raised with in a full NL O8 table.There for they should be considered.Maybe If we have a broader choice of raiseable hands, the calculation of an all-in success probablity will be easier.I am describing an event where you sit in a medium to late position and an early position (or medium) places a raise which does not imply super hand (AA2x or A23K or so). There is a decent possibility this person will call an all-in even with a B-ranked hand.I will color suited cards in the options below:*) A456*) AKQJ*) AKT9*) A334*) A356*) A3KQ*) A2KT*) A25Q*) KK23*) Q3Q2*) K2Q3*) KKQQ*) AAT9*) AA8J*) 2345While these hands cannot represent all possible hands, I hope they give good representation to the different types of hands which might call and all-in bet.If anyone has an idea for a hand which answers the above criteria, tell me and I will add it.Next I will try to feed all these Hands into a calculator, I use TwoDimes.net And see which hands average a good odds against them all.These will be, in my opinion hands which can be All-ined.All my best,FearMe

[checkymcfold 0]

OP, the nature of O8 is odd in that no hands have a huge advantage over any other hands (barring some specific situations). this is why O8 isn't often played in the NL form.but i THINK that what you're getting at is that hands that you want to get it all in with have a good high and low component. this could be things like AA23, KK45, AK24 with a suit or two, or even in some spots things like 3456 doublesuited. hands that do NOT do well HU are things that only go the low direction--stuff like A234 rainbow. these kinds of hands do make wheels, etc. occasionally, but more often they're going to be going after half the pot and need more than 2 people to go all in to make a lot of money.i don't know that this is exactly what you're going after, but if it is, i hope it helps.i also don't know that running a bunch of numbers is ever really that helpful in O8. if you're playing a NL game, you're better off seeing flops and pushing the huge edges that show up after you have 3 more cards to play with. if you want to play a style where you're just open pushing lots of hands, you're going to get yourself into a lot of bad spots where you shove hands that are only 5-10% EV ahead. so yeah, wait till the flop.EDIT: i re-read your last post, and i think i get what you're looking for: unconventional sorts of all in hands in certain spots. so here's another go:if you're sitting in late position, and there is a raise and then a call or two in front, the type of hand you want to go all in with is going to be like 4567 doublesuited, 6789 ds or something like that, for two reasons: first, since there is a raise and a call, it's likely that many of the conventional "good cards" are gone, and you will see middling cards on the board which hit you for a straight, etc. also, when you go all in in a spot like this it's unlikely to get more than one caller and even if you only make half the pot you will be profitable. getting only one caller will likely clear up your flushes as well.BUT STILL, i wouldn't recommend going all in preflop like, at all, in NLO8 unless you're holding a superpremium hand like AKK2 or AA24, etc. i can't impress enough that O8's nature is such that so much more of the game happens after the flop.is that the kind of answer you're looking for?

[FearMe 0]

Hiya Checky,Thanks for your advice.I understand what you are saying about "good" cards being taken and I should think of a way to show that in the calculation.If I ignore dead cards then 4567 Ds has an avg of 49.4% EV, that is if all flushes are alive, with one flush less it goes down to 48.4%.Like I said, dead cards should be braught into calculation.on the other hand I am pleased with A554 Ds and A668 Ds, etc. these hands hold an avg of around 55% against the mentioned possible callers.Ill keep looking.Cheers,FM

[FearMe 0]

Hello everyone,As I go on with the EV calculations Im finding interesting facts.For each hand I check it's average EV against the rest plus the standard deviation (i.e. how scattered are the EV resaults).For instance a large STD would mean less confidence as resaults are far from eachother (for instance one is 65% and the other 30%).One thing I learned about suited cards is not only do they increase EV avg but also reduce the STD, this is very interesting.I checked AQQ4 suited and Dsuited.The single suited produced an avg of 52.7% and STD 63.7While the double suited had avg 54.2% and STD 59.7The strongest hand in the game (AA23 Ds) avged 72.5% with a low STD of 53.4. Too bad this hand is only 0.0018% of possible hands (120 out of 6,497,400) ...Lets keep the search going.By the way,Im happy to say that I have been putting the new hands to the test in the past few days and these babies braught me some cash.All my best,FearMe

[FearMe 0]

One surprise I just came up with :2535 Ds has a positive avg of 51.1%, I should add that this hand has a high STD of 71.7 and that both flushes are alive.I presume that with a dead flush the hand won't be positive.FM

[FearMe 0]

Another interesting surprise:Two hands: 1) KK34 Ds = avg 55.6%, STD 73.82) KK67 Ds = avg 52.7%, STD 86.1I used to presume that the possibility of minimal low (A-5) is essential and yet this hand shows otherwise.Yes the avg has dropped and yes the Deviation is the highest Ive come across so far but the hand is playable, scary but playable.Yours,FM

[antistuff 0]

if you're sitting in late position, and there is a raise and then a call or two in front, the type of hand you want to go all in with is going to be like 4567 doublesuited, 6789 ds or something like that, for two reasons: first, since there is a raise and a call, it's likely that many of the conventional "good cards" are gone, and you will see middling cards on the board which hit you for a straight, etc. also, when you go all in in a spot like this it's unlikely to get more than one caller and even if you only make half the pot you will be profitable. getting only one caller will likely clear up your flushes as well.

if there were two allins in front of you from good players, you will often be slightly +ev to call with a hand like 5678ds.

[navybuttons 15]

[FearMe 0]

if there were two allins in front of you from good players, you will often be slightly +ev to call with a hand like 5678ds.

I tried the following reasonable situation:1) ac 3c 3d 4h2) as 2s 6d qd3) ah ad 5d kh4) 5c 6c 7d 8dThis was no good, EV for 4th player is 18%Next I tries this situation:1) ac 3c 3d 4h2) kc kd qc jd3) ah ad 5d kh4) 5s 6s 7h 8h <--- one live flusheAnd still only 25.1% (BTW the AA hand had only 21.5%)And so for now im not sure about this theory. If you have any more situations let me know...FearMe

[Hatchet 0]

25.1% 4-way IS slightly +EV 4-way. Lol, this thread is funny.

[antistuff 0]

I tried the following reasonable situation:1) ac 3c 3d 4h2) as 2s 6d qd3) ah ad 5d kh4) 5c 6c 7d 8dThis was no good, EV for 4th player is 18%Next I tries this situation:1) ac 3c 3d 4h2) kc kd qc jd3) ah ad 5d kh4) 5s 6s 7h 8h <--- one live flusheAnd still only 25.1% (BTW the AA hand had only 21.5%)And so for now im not sure about this theory. If you have any more situations let me know...FearMe

give the two players aaxx and make your suits live.

[FearMe 0]

give the two players aaxx and make your suits live.

I did.1) as ac 5d 8h2) ah ad ks 6d3) 4h 5h 6s 7sThis situation is very rare, two live flushes and AA guys have no suits.Still only 30% EV.http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2199565It doesn't look good.FearMeIn the unlikely event which follows:as ac 5c 8hah ad ks 6dkc kd qc jd4h 5h 6s 7sBoth of the KK flushes are taken and both 4567 flushes are alive.Only then it has a positive EV of 26.9http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2199569Still doesn't look good, this situation is very unlikelyFM

[navybuttons 15]

can i just say how much i hate this thread?

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

I know I shouldn't say this but the beauty of poker is to play postflops to take advantage of the bigger edges, it's about post-flop plays and pot limit games magnify this with position. Nlo8 is worse than nlhe in my opinion so I hardly play and I hate it. But whatever...

[navybuttons 15]

I know I shouldn't say this but the beauty of poker is to play postflops to take advantage of the bigger edges, it's about post-flop plays and pot limit games magnify this with position. Nlo8 is worse than nlhe in my opinion so I hardly play and I hate it. But whatever...

but what if we can forgo our advantage (position) and take a 55/45 coinflip with mediocre holdings when we more often get called by a hand that has us dominated? why wouldn't we do that against terrible players we could stack off post flop with a 80/20 advantage?i guess i don't understand you JacKing. i just don't get it.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

why wouldn't we do that against terrible players we could stack off post flop with a 80/20 advantage?Isn't that my point?i guess i don't understand you JacKing. i just don't get it.Now I am confused.

[FearMe 0]

Jack and Navy,You are missing the whole point of this thread.Lets say I play 18% of the hands im dealt on full tables.Lets say 85% of those hands I focus the play post-flop.It is the remaining 15% I was exploring. Yes it is not the main issue in poker play, yes I play other forms of O8 as well.But, YES, it is an interesting concept/ strategy IMO.Yours,FearMe

[navybuttons 15]

why wouldn't we do that against terrible players we could stack off post flop with a 80/20 advantage?Isn't that my point?i guess i don't understand you JacKing. i just don't get it.Now I am confused.

do people still have to type the SW? FearMe: I understand your exploration. thanks for being a good sport about my ribbing. but i just don't think there is any long term profitability in your exploration. i think at best the question is neutral EV.where i think the only time this situation is worth delving into would be a NLO8 tournament where stacks are small relative to blinds and there is a blind vs. blind confrontation. this is the only situation i can think of where we can put opponent on a pretty defined range and then we could figure out which hand we need to come.since NLO8 tourneys don't exist (as far as i know, but i've been known to be wrong), i just don't see the resolution to the idea being of any benefit.if you could say that villian will call with everything from AA23 to A27Q. hero's advantage must be far better than 55% against the worst hand (A27Q) to make any move like this profitable, otherwise we probably become a dog to most hands he's running with and at the very least we're giving up our advantage to flip coins for stacks.

[bassplayer45459 0]

This thread confuses me and makes me wonder if everything the autho has posted are just the multiple random thoughts about hands he wants to play that pop into his head right before a omaha 8/b sit n go starts