Poker Validation

[silkyjonson 1]

This is a problem with almost all players, but I seem to be noticing it even in top level pros like DN. I just finished watching the 2nd season of high stakes poker and it seems like after DN was getting sucked out left and right he could'nt fold a hand and was making plays to validate his status in his own eyes and the other players. It seems like if he would have just trusted himself more and went with his instincts he would have done better.I know everybody wrestles with this to some degree, were a situation arises that you are very sure you are beat, but can't make the fold because you don't wanna continue without knowing for sure. I know this happens to players at every level, but it seems like the better players grow out of this and the players that cannot learn to trust themselves are doomed to keep losing.Just thought I would bring this up, becasue it seemed like at some points DN, wanted to prove he is a world class player. I felt really bad for DN because he was getting rediculously unlucky, but after that he let it effect some of his play and lost trust in himself. With poker being such an up and down game, it is inevitable that people will question their own ability, i find I play the best when I stick to my guns and follow my instincts.just my 2 cents

[LITTLEPOPPA 0]

The issue I have with the way I have seen Daniel play recently, is that his instincts and reading ability are second to none, yet (especially in the TOC aired yesterday) he always seems to not only have a good read but be able to put his opponent on the exact hand he has, but still calls anyway...and in being right he loses the pot and more chips then he would have if he trusted his read...i understand he needs to "validate" his thinking and pay off sometimes, but it seems he did it a few times in a row...I understand the timing with editing on tv ect made those handss shown within 10 minutes, in which could have been hours apart, but I still dont know why he didnt just trust his instincts when he had someone show him he was right and make those abilities work for him instead. I hate it when he is right and still pays someone off....Its like an ego thing where he thinks it looks worse if he folds, and finds out he was bluffed, then making a public guess and still paying them off if he is right or winning the hand possibly if he is wrong....as then he has 2 ways to win, but one of them includes losing more chips....if u are going to be right, why not use that to save yourself a few calls on the river?

[TheWatchMan 0]

i've never thought of that so clearly. i find myself doing that, where i call someone down because i want to prove that he was a bigtimedonkey and i knew where he was at. now that i will think of it like this maybe ill be able to indentify it when its happening and cut it out. good post

[The Bwaves 0]

This has actually become one of my leaks in low stakes poker. For some reason when a hand arises and I'm sure of my opponents cards and I'm sure that he has me beat but why did he bet what he bet, when he bet it? It's an issue of finding out information at a low cost and gaining information.Most of the time you're calling a value bet on the river or something to find out what your opponent had but that's -ev poker.If you look at "calling opponents to get information w/ the outcome of a loss" and no future information we're playing -ev poker.BUTIf we look at "calling opponents to get information w/ a loss, and gain information" we're getting -ev at first but we can later see the +ev if we stack our opponent with definitive information!E.g. You've had a feeling that the player in seat 5 is raising his draws and value betting his strong hands. He's mixed up his play but when the flop comes 3h 6s 10s, he pops it up. This sets off alarm bells "okay is he drawing?"There's two options here to gain information, we wait for the river and call a value bet or we raise right here on the flop a substantial amount and see if he has it.In this case we're looking for the river.Turn 4c, check/check.River 5sOpponent makes small value bet, very callable. We call. He flips up 7s8s, and our read was correct on our opponent. So now we have a +ev situation when the next hand arises when he raises on a draw heavy board we can put our opponent on his hand difinitively, not to say he wont mix up his play.Okay, I don't know where I'm going with this now, sorry.

[toddkrit 0]

I do this ALL the time. Ive been getting better, but its cost me a crapload of money doing it so far. Its funny how one of the biggest holes someone has at my small level of play is being able to know what someone has. It drives me nuts because its validation for the smallest split second because I knew the hand.........but the long term feeling of handing over my chips sucks.

[silkyjonson 1]

This has actually become one of my leaks in low stakes poker. For some reason when a hand arises and I'm sure of my opponents cards and I'm sure that he has me beat but why did he bet what he bet, when he bet it? It's an issue of finding out information at a low cost and gaining information.Most of the time you're calling a value bet on the river or something to find out what your opponent had but that's -ev poker.If you look at "calling opponents to get information w/ the outcome of a loss" and no future information we're playing -ev poker.BUTIf we look at "calling opponents to get information w/ a loss, and gain information" we're getting -ev at first but we can later see the +ev if we stack our opponent with definitive information!E.g. You've had a feeling that the player in seat 5 is raising his draws and value betting his strong hands. He's mixed up his play but when the flop comes 3h 6s 10s, he pops it up. This sets off alarm bells "okay is he drawing?"There's two options here to gain information, we wait for the river and call a value bet or we raise right here on the flop a substantial amount and see if he has it.In this case we're looking for the river.Turn 4c, check/check.River 5sOpponent makes small value bet, very callable. We call. He flips up 7s8s, and our read was correct on our opponent. So now we have a +ev situation when the next hand arises when he raises on a draw heavy board we can put our opponent on his hand difinitively, not to say he wont mix up his play.Okay, I don't know where I'm going with this now, sorry.

I agree that calling for information at times is a good play. But there is a fine line and the situation has to be right (ie. your going to play against that player a lot in the near future, and its not gonna cripple u) I know DN does this a lot and allows him to gain information, but I don't think this was the case on HSP season 2 I just think he could'nt let a loser go at times, even pre-flop when he was calling huge re-raises with hands like 2,4 suited. And i'm not necessarily trying to rag on DN, but just thought a discussion on this topic would be good for a lot of people's game.

[GambleToWin 0]

Something to consider when criticizing DN:Although some of DN's decisions on HSP or TOC last night seemed dumb. Eg. He called out Secton had K's and called anyway) He is obviously doing it for a purpose, he's not a world-class player for nothing.

[toddkrit 0]

Something to consider when criticizing DN:Although some of DN's decisions on HSP or TOC last night seemed dumb. Eg. He called out Secton had K's and called anyway) He is obviously doing it for a purpose, he's not a world-class player for nothing.

Pros dont have any holes in their game then huh?

[The Bwaves 0]

I agree that calling for information at times is a good play. But there is a fine line and the situation has to be right (ie. your going to play against that player a lot in the near future, and its not gonna cripple u) I know DN does this a lot and allows him to gain information, but I don't think this was the case on HSP season 2 I just think he could'nt let a loser go at times, even pre-flop when he was calling huge re-raises with hands like 2,4 suited. And i'm not necessarily trying to rag on DN, but just thought a discussion on this topic would be good for a lot of people's game.

No, I understand where you want this discussion to go. I can see why he makes the plays he does, he's probably setting up action in the future but how many times do you make a -ev play to set up a +ev play in the future. Yes the line is thin. Trust me no one thinks you raggin' on DN.

Something to consider when criticizing DN:Although some of DN's decisions on HSP or TOC last night seemed dumb. Eg. He called out Secton had K's and called anyway) He is obviously doing it for a purpose, he's not a world-class player for nothing.

Sure he could be setting up plays but pro's make mistakes too. Maybe he had to be sure he had K's to sleep at night. You're right he is a world class player, but we will never know his reasons.

[boyitalia 0]

Knowing that you are beat and calling anyway seems to be almost every poker players biggest leak. I know it is mine(along with 5 million other things) Watching the TOC and HSP just shows that even the best pros can go on tilt. DN is one of the best in the world but he is human. If I took a bunch of one to 3 outers like DN did then I would certainly lose my 500 bankroll!