Justified Overcall?

[rwood 0]

2/4 LHE FRHero is in BB w/ Q J :spade:MP open raises, CO calls, Hero callsFlop (pot 13.00)Q J 9 :heart:Hero bets, MP & CO callTurn (19.00)5 :diamond:Hero bets, MP & CO callRiver (31.00)8 :club:Hero checks, MP bets, CO calls, Herocallsthis is absolutely the second worst card that could have rolled off here (T the worst). do i still have to overcall here???? we have to be good 1 in 10 to break even but wow what is this guy betting here that i beat, + the caller,so my pot odds are closer to 5 or 6-1 because i have to beat both hands here...i still called...but really really didnt like it

[Zach6668 513]

I would argue the 8c and the Kc tie for worst card, while the Tc is down the list, the Tc only completes gutshots.Calling this river depends on how aggressive MP and CO are, especially when shown weakness. Getting 10-1 though, I probably call.

[rwood 0]

i only say T because the pot was raised PF so i think it's more likely that PFR has a K in his hand, although they are all sheety cards. i hate pokerare there any games that you can win money where there is no luck involved? while were at it i suck and lose 34bb's in 63 hands, so i think i need to stop posting in strat. as i obvioulsy know nothing about it lol.

[akishore 0]

edit: since my post was kind of long, i bolded the summary parts.preflop call is pretty damn shitty. it really is. so much reverse domination possibility, crappy top pair value against a preflop raiser, not enough multiway for the straight value, no suited value, and terrible position in a shorthanded pot to top it off.i would also cr the flop. it's very rare that the flop gets checked through so i am never more worried about that, but it's more just to push an edge further. sure betting out has its benefit in that the preflop raiser may raise and make it incorrect for the button to cold-call with a weak draw like a gutshot, but folding a drawing hand is more of an issue in a big pot, it's almost a non-issue in this pot since any weak draw will already be making a mistake calling getting 7-to-1. so cr'ing is just to make more $$$.as far as the river, you're misapplying the idea of "you need a stronger hand to overcall than to call". that idea applies with really marginal hands, like second pair or ace high, NOT with a hand like two pair. for real, the button calling here is completely irrelevant and you can completely ignore it.if you don't understand that, think about WHY you need a stronger hand to overcall than to call.... because you need to beat both hands. so the logic is applied in situations like "i think the bettor is bluffing, so i should call with ace high.... but wait, someone else already called, and i don't think anybody calls with worse than ace high more often than 10-to-1, so even if i know i can beat the bettor more than 1/11 times, i can't call because i can't beat the second hand that often."here, the overcalling part is irrelevant. why? because worse hands will DEFINITELY call this river ahead of you. any top pair, hell any fourth pair will call.so all you need to be concerned about is the bettor. can you beat him more than 1/11 times? if so, call, if not, fold.without a read, you can call this and take a note on the play of both player's hands, because it's almost always suspect. (i can't think of a single hand for the preflop raiser that he played correctly postflop.... am i wrong on this? EDIT: 10-10 is played okay by the preflop raiser, but can't think of anything else.)hopefully this post sheds some light into a few MAJOR leaks in your game.aseem

[Knight_Owl 0]

preflop call is pretty damn shitty. it really is. so much reverse domination possibility, crappy top pair value against a preflop raiser, not enough multiway for the straight value, no suited value, and terrible position in a shorthanded pot to top it off.

r u 4 real? your joking right?

[akishore 0]

preflop call is pretty damn shitty. it really is. so much reverse domination possibility, crappy top pair value against a preflop raiser, not enough multiway for the straight value, no suited value, and terrible position in a shorthanded pot to top it off.

r u 4 real? your joking right?

uh, no. I'm sorry, it's not the least bit close to me.It's close in a short-handed game, or if it was the Button or a loose CO that opened, but not in a ring game where MP opens.If you think I'm joking, I fold KJo and ATo there too.Aseem(edited multiple times because BB code pwns me. )

[rwood 0]

so aseem, would you be calling QJs, 87s here?

[akishore 0]

so aseem, would you be calling QJs, 87s here?

no. Not multiway enough. I can try to explain more if you want, but a good example to think of is that even if you flop a flush/oes draw, you are breaking even putting in money at 33% equity with two other players, and losing money if one player drops out (balance this out with the small dead money in the pot). And you will also flop a weak draw (gutshot, bottom/second pair vs overpair/toppair, etc.) more often than two pair or better, so you can't count on just calling to hit two pair or better (and that is also a really bad reason to call getting only 5-to-1). And weak position in a shorthanded pot (position matters more as it gets more shorthanded, e.g. position is supreme heads-up, but barely matters on a seven-way flop).Aseem

[Abbaddabba 0]

I'd love to see how you're doing out of the blinds after 100k+ hands.There's no reason not to overcall. You're ahead of the caller almost every time. He raises with any flush, and would have raised earlier with any set. The only reasonable hand that just calls but has you beat is K10, and most people will raise there.The fact that the first guy called is more of a justification to raise than it is to fold.

[mrdannyg 274]

The fact that the first guy called is more of a justification to raise than it is to fold.

i think i love you.anyone up for a check/raise/fold on the river?

[rwood 0]

I'd love to see how you're doing out of the blinds after 100k+ hands.There's no reason not to overcall. You're ahead of the caller almost every time. He raises with any flush, and would have raised earlier with any set. The only reasonable hand that just calls but has you beat is K10, and most people will raise there.The fact that the first guy called is more of a justification to raise than it is to fold.

are you talking to aseem about the 100k hands or me/??

[Abbaddabba 0]

him.ive never heard of anyone folding QJs there. ive seen people with an 11VPIP call with less there.

[akishore 0]

him.ive never heard of anyone folding QJs there. ive seen people with an 11VPIP call with less there.

Ah good catch. I was reacting to the 87s -- which I do fold -- and not the QJs -- which I do call. But on the flip side, I am pretty tight out of my BB in full ring. I do not loosen up nearly as much in the blinds during ring games as I do during short handed, in disagreement with what you wrote in the other thread about them being essentially the same. This is because blinds come around almost half as often, and also I think it's a by-product of my game selection (where early position folding almost every hand is certainly not the norm). I also give MP raises way more credit than CO/Button, so that factors in to my equity.Aseem

[Knight_Owl 0]

r u 4 real? your joking right? uh, no. I'm sorry, it's not the least bit close to me.It's close in a short-handed game, or if it was the Button or a loose CO that opened, but not in a ring game where MP opens.If you think I'm joking, I fold KJo and ATo there too.Aseem(edited multiple times because BB code pwns me. )

so you fold K-Jo A-To in BB in full ring? Where did you get this advice? What hand chart do you follow? I'm Intensly curious. (especially since I noticed you tend to do very well, from the information in your blog)

[akishore 0]

so you fold K-Jo A-To in BB in full ring? Where did you get this advice? What hand chart do you follow? I'm Intensly curious. (especially since I noticed you tend to do very well, from the information in your blog)

I don't follow any hand chart, but I guess I learned mostly from SSHE (which also advises to fold ATo and KJo in the BB) and good posters from the old days like Smsah, Wrto, Iceman, etc.Aseem