tricky no-limit cash game situation, wwyd?

[chrisuk_sw 0]

This is a very interesting thread. I shall be thinking about this hand a lot, I'm grateful that I can do so without any of my own money on the lineand as a secondary bonus, it also inspired me to read all of bigskirace's posts

[akishore 0]

jack, i'm not sure if you read my second post on this thread, but i basically addressed these points:1. i felt that he didn't have AK from my previous reads.2. i realized that i probably didn't have the best hand, but pot odds gave me the correct price to call even if i was behind.if you have A 2 on a 10 8 4 flop, and someone goes all-in giving you 3-to-1 to call, do you fold this knowing you don't have the best hand? of course you don't have the best hand with ace-high, but this is a+EV call when you take into consideration the likelihood you'll have the best hand at showdown along with pot odds.this was a similar situation... while it was possible that i had the best hand (against ace-high or a pair of tens/nines, both hands drawing to the nut flush), it was more likely that i DIDN'T have the best hand. in either case, however, the call was +EV based on the pot odds, because if i didn't have the best hand, i had a strong draw to win more than my fair share at showdown.however, you make a fine point about folding and waiting for a bigger edge. that's the only reason i can see that justifies folding, and that's just personal style. sometimes in NL you have to gamble for your chips, but sometimes you have to fold knowing that you'll get a better situation. personal style i suppose.chuck, i sympathize completely. those situations suck, but you learn from them. i don't know the exact numbers at all, but it did sound like you could possibly have the best hand or have a good enough draw to the boat even if the guy slowplayed a flopped flush.aseem

[DOCTORBADBEAT 0]

1. it was a live game, not online. i had played with UTG a few times, and knew his style of play fairly well. i am confident that he would not have hesitated so much and finally smooth-called with AKo pre-flop, nor would he have pushed all-in with the made flush.2. one point that can be made for folding is that my edge is marginal (35% pot odds needed, but only around 40% do i win at showdown against most of the hands i can put him on). NL is all about huge edges, so i might have folded that anyway and just waited for a bigger edge.I think you may be underestimating the possibility of AKo because it is a hand that can be played in a variety of ways from UTG. In a similar hand I encounterd in a 2/4 game UTG raised 20 preflop I went all-in QQ for 200 straight from early position. Everyone folded to the raiser and after about 5 min he called w/JJ. The ladies held up. I'm not sure how aggressivley you are willing to play queens, but I have a feeling I was at a looser table. Your opponent 's hesistation preflop may have been the result of him trying to put you on a hand or merely a tough decision of his own hand strength given the raise. I agree with point #2 if you play a conservative variance minimizing philosphy of poker.Lastly, find a better game with more weak players. Your description of the table made it seem difficult to have a profitable session unless you played near perfectly and got a bit luckly. It is the "poker generation" and there are lots of players playing high stakes that don't even calculate the odds or read strategy. Just ask Daniel

[Dhall901 0]

This is just my idea, but I'm not a very good poker player, so take that as you will. Obviously the amount of time your opponent took to call leads you to believe either AK or middle pp, in my opinion. With a suited flop like that, folks like to bluff..I don't know how the hand turned out, but I don't believe he flopped a flush. So you're left with top pair top kicker, or a possible flopped set. With the flopped set, you're still looking at good odds to call in this situation..but AK could be tricky if he has the ace of hearts. Maybe I'm loose, but hell I'm calling..short of AK with the heart, you're in good shape

[badgerbucco 0]

His bet on the flop reeked of someone trying to protect a hand. Based on the pre-flop betting, that was unlikely to be 2-pair, a small flush, or QJ. That leaves the pair of Ks or the set other than Ks. AK is a possibility, but you have a good shot if the A isn't a heart. The set gets beat by many drawing hands. It took me a while to think through, but I agree with your new thought process.

[pokernoobie 0]

i havent read any other posts. and am a little late but i would have called!

[Jubba 0]

1.) I would have taken my time and thought out what he could possibly be holding.2.) After taking that time I would try to decide what his most likely holding is, and then I would have called. 9s or 10s are the most likely hands and you're not drawing dead against them. You have so many outs against those hands and you have two chances to hit one, and you're getting the correct odds on your money, calling is the only option. Yeah you're behind, but the odds are there.

[Guest]

THAT HAS TO BE THE EASIEST FOLD EVER, YOU DONT EVEN HAVE A ACE OF HEARTS, NOT TO MENTION YOU NEED ANOTHER HEART FOR A FLUSH, NOT TO MENTION THERE IS A OVER PAIR ON THE BOARD THE THE UTG IS A SOLID PLAYER....WHY THE HELL DID YOU EVEN POST THIS HAND FOLD IT AND GET ONTO THE NEXT HAND, IF YOUR EVEN THINKING OF CALLING HERE YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO PLAY POKER.

pretty harsh post,,,but i would agree that too many cards can beat you.tough to lay down, i think folding is the correct move.to me QQ has almost always been a loser in my hand so thats the biggest reason i would have folded.

[Erudis 0]

well... it's a marginal situation and this is just not what you're looking for in a NL cash game. just fold it and find a better spot. you simply do not have to make the perfect "gutsy call" every time to be a big winner, but you can certainly be a big loser making too many perfect "gutsy calls"the fact is you just don't know what he has, if by your read you are convinced you're ahead, get those chips in; if you're not convinced, just fold. if it were a tournament teh call or fold would depend on many many other additional factors, however, this is a cash game and you're just not in the right situation to be putting a lot of chips in. fold it

[pokernoobie 0]

this hand is not a gutsy call at all.. this has to be the easiest call everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[BuzzWorthy 0]

Since this is still being debated heavily, I think I can still state my opinion even though the results were posted. I would've called.However, what really matters in the end is the result - he had a set of 10's. Only the flush or miracles runner-runner straight or Queen would've saved you. Turns out it was a good laydown after all.You can analyze it all you want, but sometimes it comes down to instinct. turns out yours was right in this case.

[DTrain 0]

Very interesting thread. There's actually some decent discussion going on here.It's a borderline call, although the pot odds do tip the scales in your favor slightly. Given the situation, I probably would've folded. Most of the lines of reasoning for this thread have been exhausted, but I'd like to bring up one point that nobody has really gone into yet:What I'm most concerned about is the size of your pre-flop raise. You committed nearly a third of your stack, when making it $20 to go would have accomplished the same result. With those cards, he probably would have taken the same amount of time to call a 3x raise vs a 4x raise, as he would have figured you for an overpair or AK. You would have gotten the same amount of information, and you would have saved yourself some cash. That's really the only part of your logic I disagree with.