Ak, Flop Tptk Play Along

[brando 0]

I actually prefer reraising the flop (as I stated in my first post). Any king can min-raise us on that flop, as can any jack. QT might min-raise to try and see a free river. Hell, even A7 could min raise for information.I don't really like calling with TPTK against 2 opponents. If an ace hits on the turn the straight hit. If a king hits on the turn a set or 2 pair has made a boat.First we'll just have to agree to disagree about pf, and that's no big deal.When you get one or two differing opinions, then ok. When you get every single reply saying you have to raise, don't you think you might possibly be mistaken?poker is certainly not a game of absolutes and I don't think there's many situations if any that are considered a "must".Ah, that old phrase. Similar to the old "well if everyone played the same there'd be no skill in it".Obviously you don't have to raise preflop. You could fold. You could move allin. Everyone else bar you in this thread is stating that the play that maximises your overall equity in this hand is to make a reasonable raise preflop. Roy Cooke's article does not apply to this situation.

I understand I'm certainly in the minority on this, at the same time what 7ish posters have told me otherwise, that's hardly enough evidence to say "it's right".I could very well be wrong in terms of what action produces the most +ev, I'm not denying this. Poker is about more than just math and for whatever reason, this line pf helps me play better. I have a problem of trying to defend a pot to long when I raise pf, psychological problem, this helps eliminate that. Again, doesn't change the math, but it helps me try to make better decisions later. Of course I know you could fold, raise, or call, I just think it's crazy that everyone says you "must raise pf", that completely ignores game conditions and opponent's tendencies.Also, thanks for help on the flop line, I see what both of you are saying, I like my line better than calling and seeing what the turn brings, but that certainly has merit and given the cold call from CO may be more right.

[simo_8ball 0]

The only problem I see with raising (and I hadn't really noticed this until Scott pointed it out) is that you don't have too much left on the turn. Seeing that makes it marginal IMO. Calling isn't too pretty, but raising all but commits you to the hand unless you get pushed on the flop.I don't mind either line too much given that info.I could very well be wrong in terms of what action produces the most +evSee, that's what we strive to do here. Maximise EV. It's the only way we can evaluate one move above another. If you have a problem letting go after being the preflop aggressor, fix that. Don't make poor plays in other areas to compensate.Golf analogy: If someone has a massive hook, it's better for them to fix the hook itself than aim 40 degrees right of the target every shot.

[nomad_monad 0]

as usual, Scott pretty much nailed it.only thing i'll add is - if you really do think you're better than your opponents postflop, then you really should be raising preflop. it's much easier to outplay 2-3 opponents than 6, at least not without position.

[CoranMoran 0]

Reasons I raise preflop with good hands:--> Defining the Hands.My raise tells everyone I am strong.So if opponents show counter-aggression, I can better define their hands. Placing opponents on a hand is a very important part of the game.This makes my post flop decisions much easier.Without a preflop raise, an opponent may see me as week and raise me with anything from the nuts to a bluff.I would have to simply guess or spend a lot more money finding out.--> Avoid a Big Loss.Slowplaying any hand preflop allows players to see the flop cheaply (or for free).If the flop then comes A 5 2, I would then lose most of my stack to the Big Blind who held 5 2.I can not allow this to happen.--> For ValuePlayers make loose calls all day in our games.This is what gives us our profit.And this is why we play poker.Opponents will call our preflop raise with worse Aces.And with a raised pot, they will then be inclined to call down with their AQ all the way to showdown.--CM

[Peak01 0]

I didn't get time to read all the replies but I thought someone should come to brando's defense here. I also limp with AK UTG a percentage of the time so you have one person on your side brando. Call me a weak panzy but I am okay with that.

[Zach6668 513]

This thread is dumb.

Brando,I don't mean to be rude. It bothers me that when you reply to someones reply, you berate them for not giving you a million word thesis.That is all.- Zach

[simo_8ball 0]

I didn't get time to read all the replies but I thought someone should come to brando's defense here. I also limp with AK UTG a percentage of the time so you have one person on your side brando. Call me a weak panzy but I am okay with that.

We aren't talking about limping UTG with AK. We are talking about limping with AK after someone else has. I don't like this unless there are some exceptional circumstances.

[brando 0]

as usual, Scott pretty much nailed it.only thing i'll add is - if you really do think you're better than your opponents postflop, then you really should be raising preflop. it's much easier to outplay 2-3 opponents than 6, at least not without position.

The purpose of me saying I have an edge is saying that I make better decisions post flop. I'm not limping with this hand in hopes of "outplaying" everyone, I'm only continuing with this hand if I hit. It's not about outplaying them, it's about trying to win the most money.

Reasons I raise preflop with good hands:--> Defining the Hands.My raise tells everyone I am strong.So if opponents show counter-aggression, I can better define their hands. Placing opponents on a hand is a very important part of the game.This makes my post flop decisions much easier.Without a preflop raise, an opponent may see me as week and raise me with anything from the nuts to a bluff.I would have to simply guess or spend a lot more money finding out.--> Avoid a Big Loss.Slowplaying any hand preflop allows players to see the flop cheaply (or for free).If the flop then comes A 5 2, I would then lose most of my stack to the Big Blind who held 5 2.I can not allow this to happen.--> For ValuePlayers make loose calls all day in our games.This is what gives us our profit.And this is why we play poker.Opponents will call our preflop raise with worse Aces.And with a raised pot, they will then be inclined to call down with their AQ all the way to showdown.--CM

You make good points and I agree with alot you have to say. That could be b/c I don't in anyway find raising a bad play here. I just prefer to limp and it makes it easier for me to play the hand, maybe I'm backwards, but it does.Once again for every example where someone says the flop comes A x y and your opponent holds x,y I can give the counter example where someone goes broke with their AT on an A x,y flop. They might have folded their AT pf to a raise but decided to limp or raise themselves b/c it was a limped pot. It just doesn't add anything to the discussion. Sure they will call raises with worse A's, but limping encourages a weak A to enter the pot more often than for a raise. Personally, I'm not sure how to quantify this, but I believe the money in loose games comes from post flop play, not pre flop. We make more money in position, so I'll give up my small edges pre flop OOP in hopes to get a bigger one later.

Brando,I don't mean to be rude. It bothers me that when you reply to someones reply, you berate them for not giving you a million word thesis.That is all.- Zach

I don't want a million word thesis, but these are discussion boards. Saying "call" or "raise" or "easy fold" does not create discussion or help understand the situation. I don't want a million words, but a brief explanation just makes sense. We all are here to improve our game, I would think, and we have to understand in order to improve.

We aren't talking about limping UTG with AK. We are talking about limping with AK after someone else has. I don't like this unless there are some exceptional circumstances.

Just to clarify, when I was talking about limping I certainly meant UTG & UTG+1 even if there was a limp in front of me. Maybe we were on seperate pages.

[simo_8ball 0]

It's not about outplaying them, it's about trying to win the most money.I could very well be wrong in terms of what action produces the most +evSee the problem with those 2 statements?

Just to clarify, when I was talking about limping I certainly meant UTG & UTG+1 even if there was a limp in front of me. Maybe we were on seperate pages.

I can't really defend playing AK passively preflop when someone has already limped. You just encourage more limpers and make post-flop play much harder. You have already admitted that you think you might be wrong. Every strat regular has said you are wrong. No maybes. Your argument seems to be that you make tend to make bad decisions after you raise, so you limp to avoid the situation. That is pretty weak.

[brando 0]

It's not about outplaying them, it's about trying to win the most money.I could very well be wrong in terms of what action produces the most +evSee the problem with those 2 statements?I can't really defend playing AK passively preflop when someone has already limped. You just encourage more limpers and make post-flop play much harder. You have already admitted that you think you might be wrong. Every strat regular has said you are wrong. No maybes. Your argument seems to be that you make tend to make bad decisions after you raise, so you limp to avoid the situation. That is pretty weak.

Of course I see the problems with the first 2 statements, however I said that I feel it maximizes my ev to limp. I tend to make better decisions when I don't feel emotionally tied to the pot, maybe I shouldn't say it maximizes my ev as much as it helps me when more when ahead and lose less when behind. I understand you may think avoiding a situation which is the max ev play is weak or dumb, however we all have holes in our game, so I just adjust accordingly and am addressing my weakness. Adjusting and learning is better than doing something just because someone says so.The action I've chosen to address the weakness may not be the best, as I continue to learn I'll choose better ones and address the problems in other manners.If I'm making better decisions post flop I can live with some of my pre flop flaws, although I'm still not convinced that in this situation raising will yield you a significant more amount of money in the long run.

[Scott3705 0]

I tend to make better decisions If I'm making better decisions post flop I can live with some of my pre flop flaws,

As I said before, I don't find your AK limp atrocious. it's something I don't do often, but it doesn't matter so much if you feel comfortable playing post flop. However, you keep saying you make good decisions post flop, and in this case, you chose a line that is entirely spewing for a TPTK hand. You cannot playing TPTK this aggressively in a multi-way limped pot.

[brando 0]

As I said before, I don't find your AK limp atrocious. it's something I don't do often, but it doesn't matter so much if you feel comfortable playing post flop. However, you keep saying you make good decisions post flop, and in this case, you chose a line that is entirely spewing for a TPTK hand. You cannot playing TPTK this aggressively in a multi-way limped pot.

I understand I may not have played it optimally post flop, that's why I posted it. It's to bad that post flop wasn't the meat of the discussion. I don't mean to imply that I always make better decisions post flop, that would be insane, just mean to say typically or on avg I'm better post flop than my opponents, not that difficult at this level.

[The Bwaves 0]

I understand I may not have played it optimally post flop, that's why I posted it. It's to bad that post flop wasn't the meat of the discussion. I don't mean to imply that I always make better decisions post flop, that would be insane, just mean to say typically or on avg I'm better post flop than my opponents, not that difficult at this level.

Well in my opinion your thought processes are straight so neither here nor there. I was going to say bump the minimum re-raise and you did, so there.+ev.

[nomad_monad 0]

I understand I may not have played it optimally post flop, that's why I posted it. It's to bad that post flop wasn't the meat of the discussion. I don't mean to imply that I always make better decisions post flop, that would be insane, just mean to say typically or on avg I'm better post flop than my opponents, not that difficult at this level.

Preflop is really where things take a dive. I remember reading a post on Rizen's blog once that put it really well - when you find yourself in a situation on a later street that is really difficult, or results in a bad decision, often the mistake can be traced not to the decision on that particular street, but all the way back to a "smaller" mistake on an earlier street. A small mistake at the outset sometimes sets into motion a chain of events that makes the huge mistake hard to avoid or unavoidable.That's what happens here. When you don't raise preflop (a relatively small mistake, if indeed you are much better postflop), you make a gigantic mistake by playing a big pot with only TPTK. You need to realize that when you don't raise with AK preflop, you are giving fantastic implied odds to anyone else limping in with junk if you play it too fast on the flop. If you are patient and disciplined enough to play a small pot with this and get away from too much pressure when you just limp, then not raising with AK isn't that bad. But you didn't do that. If you just can't help playing a big pot with AK when it hits top pair, you should raise. This isn't a debate over an absolute doctrine about how to play AK - what it really is, is a question over how to play AK given your own tendencies and habits. In the long-run you'll save yourself money by being honest with yourself and making adjustments accordingly.That's it.