aucu 3 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)SB ($79.50)BB ($136)UTG ($99)UTG+1 ($69.10)Hero ($104.65)MP2 ($172.60)CO ($81)Button ($292.65)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J, J. UTG calls $1, UTG+1 raises to $4, Hero calls $4, 4 folds, BB raises to $14, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $10.Flop: ($33.50) T, 7, 8(2 players)BB bets $10, Hero raises to $30, BB raises to $84, I just hate JJHave an over pair and a gut shot.What now? Link to post Share on other sites
No_Neck 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Push or fold and I don't like push. Any read? Link to post Share on other sites
aucu 3 Posted September 20, 2006 Author Share Posted September 20, 2006 He was a 24/5/3 Link to post Share on other sites
nomad_monad 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 He was a 24/5/3with those stats it's an easy fold. he committed himself - no way you could ever make him fold a better hand, which is all i see him having when he 3 bets this board after 3 betting preflop.calling the BB's flop lead wouldn't be too bad, actually. the price is already good, you're in position, and it might really slow him down on the turn. you're really only ahead of AK here, and it isn't that often that AK 3-bets from the BB preflop. plus, it's doubtful your raise ever folds a better hand against this board since you most likely defined your hand to the villain as a high pocket pair with your preflop reraise. Link to post Share on other sites
GWCGWC 83 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 mans saying he can beat your JJ. fold Link to post Share on other sites
antistuff 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 i really like just calling the flop here. Link to post Share on other sites
GWCGWC 83 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 i really like just calling the flop here.then we have no idea where we are in the hand. Link to post Share on other sites
nomad_monad 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 then we have no idea where we are in the hand.i think we already have a pretty good idea that we're most likely behind on the flop.i like flat calling the flop as well, for reasons already mentioned. Link to post Share on other sites
antistuff 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 then we have no idea where we are in the hand.that depends on the opponent and if he would fire twice with ak here. i think most wouldn't. Link to post Share on other sites
GWCGWC 83 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 i think we already have a pretty good idea that we're most likely behind on the flop.i like flat calling the flop as well, for reasons already mentioned.no, we only have an idea we're behind because we raised.I'm NOT saying it's wrong to just call, but the flop raise defined both hands for us. Link to post Share on other sites
antistuff 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 I'm NOT saying it's wrong to just call, but the flop raise defined both hands for us.you have 6 outs against an overpair here.lets assume he always has a higher pair than you or ak (reasonable assumption).if you hit one of your 6 outs he will go broke here (or else i like a raise).he will almost always check to you with ak on the turn unless he improves (and sometimes even then). calling here is so much better, AIAEC. Link to post Share on other sites
aucu 3 Posted September 20, 2006 Author Share Posted September 20, 2006 Went for the fold, but wasn't to pleased about it, good to see opinions on both sides.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)SB ($79.50)BB ($136)UTG ($99)UTG+1 ($69.10)Hero ($104.65)MP2 ($172.60)CO ($81)Button ($292.65)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J, J. UTG calls $1, UTG+1 raises to $4, Hero calls $4, 4 folds, BB raises to $14, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $10.Flop: ($33.50) T, 7, 8(2 players)BB bets $10, Hero raises to $30, BB raises to $84, Hero folds.Final Pot: $147.50 Link to post Share on other sites
Spence 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 He bets $10 in to a $30+ pot. You have JJ on T87 flop and raise the WEAK bet. He raises to $80, showing that his first bet was somebody looking to trap, and you make the correct fold.People advocating smooth calling the flop. Turn comes 2o. Theres $57 in pot. He bets out $20-25. Do you call, fold, raise? What if he bets $50, because he took your call on such a weak bet as weakness (as well he should the majority of the time unless you have a monster). Are you calling a pot sized bet with a measly pair?Curious to what you guys would do in that spot is all. I like the OP's line. Link to post Share on other sites
antistuff 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 He bets $10 in to a $30+ pot. You have JJ on T87 flop and raise the WEAK bet. He raises to $80, showing that his first bet was somebody looking to trap, and you make the correct fold.People advocating smooth calling the flop. Turn comes 2o. Theres $57 in pot. He bets out $20-25. Do you call, fold, raise? What if he bets $50, because he took your call on such a weak bet as weakness (as well he should the majority of the time unless you have a monster). Are you calling a pot sized bet with a measly pair?Curious to what you guys would do in that spot is all. I like the OP's line.a call on that flop is actually a very strong play and not a sign of weakness at all. put yourself in that posistion with ak or qq. you wouldnt know what to do on the turn. he bets that turn you fold unless its something completely silly like $5. he isnt firing twice with there ak very often. if he is the kind of player to do that then you should already know this (and against that type of player i am raising the flop). ops line is good to try to win the pot now. if you want to win his whole stack you just call here. Link to post Share on other sites
Spence 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 A flat call of a 1/3 bet on a T87 board is strong?I don't know, maybe I'm just not seeing it. I understand the idea of trying to hide the strength of your hand, but if you got TT/88/77 would you really want your opponent drawing at his hand so cheaply?AK, seriously, I'm probably not c-betting that flop. Maybe it's a hole in my game, but the majority of the time I'll slow up, and if I do bet, I sure as hell wouldn't make a 1/3 pot sized bet. At least 1/2, probably more.As to your question. If somebody flat-called my bet there with QQ I am betting out 3/4 pot on turn. Link to post Share on other sites
TheCorporation3 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)SB ($79.50)BB ($136)UTG ($99)UTG+1 ($69.10)Hero ($104.65)MP2 ($172.60)CO ($81)Button ($292.65)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J, J. UTG calls $1, UTG+1 raises to $4, Hero calls $4, 4 folds, BB raises to $14, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $10.Flop: ($33.50) T, 7, 8(2 players)BB bets $10, Hero raises to $30, BB raises to $84, I just hate JJHave an over pair and a gut shot.What now?Looks like youre beat sir, I say fold and move on. Unless you have pot odds and implied odds.i really like just calling the flop here.Exactly, take one off for cheap. You already figure you are beaten by AA, KK, QQ anyway, so try to snap off a gut shot or set.A flat call of a 1/3 bet on a T87 board is strong?I don't know, maybe I'm just not seeing it. I understand the idea of trying to hide the strength of your hand, but if you got TT/88/77 would you really want your opponent drawing at his hand so cheaply?AK, seriously, I'm probably not c-betting that flop. Maybe it's a hole in my game, but the majority of the time I'll slow up, and if I do bet, I sure as hell wouldn't make a 1/3 pot sized bet. At least 1/2, probably more.As to your question. If somebody flat-called my bet there with QQ I am betting out 3/4 pot on turn. If you have a set here you probably arent' raising too much anyway, Maybe only $30 like the OP did, so in a sense, you are saying that the OP is representing a set? But then of course VIllian reraises, which at this point he is beat. Link to post Share on other sites
antistuff 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 A flat call of a 1/3 bet on a T87 board is strong?Yes. I would hate having qq or even kings and aces and being there and having someone call my bet on that flop when I'm out of posistion. I'de rather they folded. I understand the idea of trying to hide the strength of your hand, but if you got TT/88/77 would you really want your opponent drawing at his hand so cheaply?he is welcome to draw to two outs all he wants. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 He was a 24/5/3If this is over a significant sample, I play this hand for set value and fold the flop when he bets $10. I don't even think you have the 11:1 odds to chase the gutter or your set as it fills a str8. This player is not reraising out of the blinds with Ak often at all at a full ring game. Link to post Share on other sites
antistuff 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 If this is over a significant sample, I play this hand for set value and fold the flop when he bets $10. I don't even think you have the 11:1 odds to chase the gutter or your set as it fills a str8. This player is not reraising out of the blinds with Ak often at all at a full ring game.6 outs 7.5 to 1. i think we can get that out of him. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 6 outs 7.5 to 1. i think we can get that out of him.Actually yes. We would only need to milk $25 out of him on two streets here. Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)SB ($79.50)BB ($136)UTG ($99)UTG+1 ($69.10)Hero ($104.65)MP2 ($172.60)CO ($81)Button ($292.65)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J, J. UTG calls $1, UTG+1 raises to $4, Hero calls $4, 4 folds, BB raises to $14, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $10.Flop: ($33.50) T, 7, 8(2 players)BB bets $10, Hero raises to $30, BB raises to $84, I just hate JJHave an over pair and a gut shot.What now?It doesn't matter much now. Assuming you have to put the rest of your stack in to see the last two cards, our pot odds are about 2.6:1. Pot size = preflop + our flop bet + his bet: the rest of our stackPot size = 33.5 + 30 + (104-14) = 153.50We have to call another 60 total. So our pot odds are 153.50:60 = 2.56:1 or 28.1%. So we have to win 28.1% of the time to break even.If we're behind we're about a 3:1 dog. If we're ahead (he has AK or 99), he's about a 3:1 dog.If I fool with the probability column below to find a break even point, it's about 8%. So if we think he has us beat 92% of the time or more, we fold. *Shrug*. The important decision is whether or not to raise the flop. (And I'd flat call there.) Win % Prob. EV0.243 0.92 0.22356 (AA)0.766 0.08 0.06128 (AK) 0.28484 Link to post Share on other sites
aucu 3 Posted September 20, 2006 Author Share Posted September 20, 2006 Actually yes. We would only need to milk $25 out of him on two streets here.But calling the re-raise would leave us $5 short of being all in. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 But calling the re-raise would leave us $5 short of being all in.No, sorry I wasn't very clear there....I think you're reraise was absolutely horrendous on the flop. Like I said, I'm taking the flop as a set or forget type of hands. However, considering the flop and his silly bet into the pot, I'm willing to call the flop and try to improve on the turn. We're getting 7.5:1 to outdraw him on the turn and the pot odds w/ a little bit of implied odds is laying the correct price. If you catch your gutter or a set, you would only have to extract a $25 bet from him w/ AA or KK with the pot being$50+ which is not unreasonable at all. Link to post Share on other sites
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