UncleHoot 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 Maybe FD +pairIndeed, something like 9d Td against KX (which he probably thinks I have) is nearly a coin-flip, and it's not necessarily a bad move for him to make, even if I had raised preflop. Imagine if I had raised preflop and he figured I had something like KJ. For him to push at that point isn't a bad move if he thinks I just have TP/TK and I am trying to bully him into folding his draw. If that was the case, I would hopefully fold, and he made an excellent play at a time in the tourney where I don't want to call-off 75% of my stack. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 not necessarily44, K9, Ad9dno, I'd likely check.I'd check 99 a lot.Keep pot small, in pos, no need to tangle with leader.I play very much to cash.no he said you'd raise preflop.9,9 4,4, and K,9 would all be raised preflop if you were BB, i'm sure of it, why let SB complete and and ccheck 1 of these hands?i can see K,9 but thats abotu it Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 no he said you'd raise preflop.9,9 4,4, and K,9 would all be raised preflop if you were BB, i'm sure of it, why let SB complete and and ccheck 1 of these hands?i can see K,9 but thats abotu itmaybe you missed the part where I said I don't tangle with chip leaders when I'm sitting pretty comfortably and in pos here.I would not raise 44 preflopAd9d, maybe. Depends on likelihood of picking pot up right thereK9, never.99 70/30, raise/check'I'm very very passive in that situation. Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 no he said you'd raise preflop.9,9 4,4, and K,9 would all be raised preflop if you were BB, i'm sure of it, why let SB complete and and ccheck 1 of these hands?i can see K,9 but thats abotu itThank you, the f'in cavalry has finally arrived.. maybe you missed the part where I said I don't tangle with chip leaders when I'm sitting pretty comfortably and in pos here.I would not raise 44 preflopAd9d, maybe. Depends on likelihood of picking pot up right thereK9, never.99 70/30, raise/check'I'm very very passive in that situation.If you are passive and don't like to tangle with the chip leader, you'd wouldn't reraise and push all in either... Once again I agree with the concepts of A:Avoiding the chip leader and B:Waiting for better spots, but both of these don't apply here... Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 If you are passive and don't like to tangle with the chip leader, you'd wouldn't reraise and push all in either...of course I"d push 44/99 hereK9 too.9d + Xd maybe.I'm passive preflop but will exploit big edges post. Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 of course I"d push 44/99 hereK9 too.9d + Xd maybe.I'm passive preflop but will exploit big edges post.Ha... it's funny how you talk with so much confidence when you talk about having K9, when it's hardly different from K4... if you don't raise 99 preflop you're opinion shouldn't count anyways... Link to post Share on other sites
UncleHoot 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 Ha... it's funny how you talk with so much confidence when you talk about having K9, when it's hardly different from K4... if you don't raise 99 preflop you're opinion shouldn't count anyways...Wow. Do you always play in such a way that someone can put you on a particular hand? I can think of 5,600 reasons to check 99 here and hope for that small shot at doubling up. I guess that's what makes it an occasionally useful play. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Ha... it's funny how you talk with so much confidence when you talk about having K9, when it's hardly different from K4... if you don't raise 99 preflop you're opinion shouldn't count anyways...Pushing K9 is much different than calling with K4.Especially when you consider what the BB is risking here.Not raising 99 from BB means my opinon should not count?Pretty sure my opinion here carries as much weight as yours.And will continue to.I play a different style than you.I've played over 830 off the STT's in last 4-5 months.And cash 30% above the average ( i.e. 39% in 10 Man, and 43% in 6 Man)Pretty much understand the game at the lower stakes.Obviously many others are better and play many many more.But to ignore my opinion is laughable. Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Wow. Do you always play in such a way that someone can put you on a particular hand? I can think of 5,600 reasons to check 99 here and hope for that small shot at doubling up. I guess that's what makes it an occasionally useful play.Yes in most cases I do, there's really no need to get tricky here, you have an opportunity to take the pot down, it's a brutal play to check here heads up against a tall stack, unless you are maybe down to Heads up, otherwise it's a guaranteed raise... but I suppose you like to limp with AA every once in a while to mix up your play.... and then you post about bad beats... You don't need to be as tricky as you'd like to be... especially when you post as many questions as you do... (disclaimer: I think it's great that you question a lot, I think it's one of the keys to always improving your play.. whether you win or lose...)Pushing K9 is much different than calling with K4.Especially when you consider what the BB is risking here.Not raising 99 from BB means my opinon should not count?Pretty sure my opinion here carries as much weight as yours.And will continue to.I play a different style than you.I've played over 830 off the STT's in last 4-5 months.And cash 30% above the average ( i.e. 39% in 10 Man, and 43% in 6 Man)Pretty much understand the game at the lower stakes.Obviously many others are better and play many many more.But to ignore my opinion is laughable.Obviously it was tongue in cheek... But I don't see how you can justify checking with 99. Bear in mind you are pushing with K 9 against a re-raise of your raise so it's not much different...As for your track record, congratulations, that's not bad... but it doesn't affect your strategy on this hands... my track records not half bad either... ... you want to measure **** length now? Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I noted my track record is easily beateable, of course.But I think a lot about the game and generally, know something.fwiw, I LRR AA/KK almost all the time now from EP.Last night it burned me.Usually, it makes more than open raisng from UTG, in my experience, given most tablesWhy do I care about picking up 400 here?Sure, it's niceBut raising to 800 ?I get called.Pretty much sux.I seem to run into a lot of chip leaders that are not folding preflop to normal raises. My emphasis is on mainitining a strong pos, not gaining 400t here.I do raise sometimes.We have Top2 post flop with K9.We have 99 preflop.And a much bigger potAnd you can't see difference ? Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 We have Top2 post flop with K9.We have 99 preflop.And a much bigger potAnd you can't see difference ?You misread my post... the not much difference part was in response to you saying you would push with K9 with no difficulty... I'm saying the situation with K4 is not much different... As for not caring about picking up 400 chips... meh, I don't want to go down that road, and I think I'm about down here... Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 You misread my post... the not much difference part was in response to you saying you would push with K9 with no difficulty... I'm saying the situation with K4 is not much different... As for not caring about picking up 400 chips... meh, I don't want to go down that road, and I think I'm about down here...you later made the comparision, it appears between me checknig with 99 with no info vs pushing with K9 after a raise by SB to 1000, no? And the K4 vs K9 was addressed as a gap theory response and more importantly, the risk BB is taking here. Seriously, regardless of how poorly I may play preflop according to you, this post flop push would be a bad call for K4 overall, against me.*********maybe Strategy was rightI'm a bit sensitive to criticism I need to stay psyched for tonights home tournies.Dont' bust my balls!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 you later made the comparision, it appears between me checknig with 99 with no info vs pushing with K9 after a raise by SB to 1000, no? And the K4 vs K9 was addressed as a gap theory response and more importantly, the risk BB is taking here. Seriously, regardless of how poorly I may play preflop according to you, this post flop push would be a bad call for K4 overall, against me.*********maybe Strategy was rightI'm a bit sensitive to criticism I need to stay psyched for tonights home tournies.Dont' bust my balls!!!!Ok, I want to make it clear, I respect anyone who's willing to discuss/debate strategy and nothing's personal... Yeah you did misunderstand what I was trying to get at or I miswrote what I was trying to get at... I wasn't comparing the play with 99 with anything, that was isolated input... I believe in every circumstance you should raise in the BB if it is folded to you and the blinds and the SB limp calls... the only way around this is if it's live and the guys calls and shows you both his hole cards and they are 10 10 JJ QQ KK or AA...I was trying to say that you seem to show extreme confidence with K9 in the situation, and yet you are saying to fold K4 ... which doesn't make much sense... because either way we are talking about a bet, raise, reraise before the decision that we are debating... it's the reraise that in my mind makes it a very similar situation whether you are in the SB with K9 or the BB with K4... Link to post Share on other sites
UncleHoot 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 you later made the comparision, it appears between me checknig with 99 with no info vs pushing with K9 after a raise by SB to 1000, no? And the K4 vs K9 was addressed as a gap theory response and more importantly, the risk BB is taking here. Seriously, regardless of how poorly I may play preflop according to you, this post flop push would be a bad call for K4 overall, against me.*********maybe Strategy was rightI'm a bit sensitive to criticism I need to stay psyched for tonights home tournies.Dont' bust my balls!!!!Your posts are generally well reasoned, as opposed to someone simply saying "You're probably a favorite to win. Call." Those posts mean very little.So as I stated yesterday, I appreciate your posts. I think others do as well, but they're not saying so because it "shows weakness" or something. And to others, feel free to underestimate me at your own risk. For once, this is a thread for which I'm not embarrassed. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I was trying to say that you seem to show extreme confidence with K9 in the situation, and yet you are saying to fold K4 ... which doesn't make much sense... because either way we are talking about a bet, raise, reraise before the decision that we are debating... it's the reraise that in my mind makes it a very similar situation whether you are in the SB with K9 or the BB with K4...cool, yeah, nothing personal.I love debating.Do you see how much more the BB is risking though?And thus how much his push needs to be respected?He knows we like our hand enough to raise to 1000, and he still pushes.Had we pushed with K4 after BB raised to 400, I"d be cool with that, especially, if we know BB to be a loose caller. I would not push, but just saying.Here, BB"s range is much more narrow.SB would be raising to 1000 with many more hands with that stack than BB is pushing back with . Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 "I believe in every circumstance you should raise in the BB if it is folded to you and the blinds and the SB limp calls"wow....way to general and rigid. Stacks sizes might certainly dictate otherwise, and (I always give Strategy credit for this, even if it wasnt him that pointed it out) pros will rarely raise BB with an A. With position against SB and playing an A slow he can extract a lot of chips. I'll also almost never raise small pair in a B vs B situation where SB has a decent stack. If I dont hit the set Ive kept the pot small, and can get away from it if SB represents that he caught a bigger piece, or if his c/b is small enough I can call with some decent implied odds. When I do hit the set SB can go for a big number.Unless stacks dictate otherwise I'll almost always raise with QT, QJ, K7+. Early on I'll raise with garbage to see if SB is a habitual folder, but if he shows any fortitude at all, I'll just see later flops for free. Link to post Share on other sites
reedmcneal 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I play pretty tricky when play gets shot handed in the 10-man SNG's. I will often check AA or KK in BB if there is just one limper (especially against someone with a bigger stack, although not usually when I'm in 2nd chip position). 99 not as much, but I can still see it being done. K9 probably. 44 maybe, depends on opponent. The point is that I don't think any of those hands can really be discounted at this point. Actuary made a great point that the BB needs a much better hand to Raise/Push than we do to bet/RR. I think he would just call or fold to our reraise with TP or flush draw. Only hands I think we beat here are a pair w/flush draw, gut shot w/flush draw, or maybe bottom 2 pair.It hasn't really been mentioned, but in this situation I think his min-raise to 400 shows a lot of strength when coupled with his push when we reraise. Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 "I believe in every circumstance you should raise in the BB if it is folded to you and the blinds and the SB limp calls"wow....way to general and rigid. Stacks sizes might certainly dictate otherwise, and (I always give Strategy credit for this, even if it wasnt him that pointed it out) pros will rarely raise BB with an A. With position against SB and playing an A slow he can extract a lot of chips. I'll also almost never raise small pair in a B vs B situation where SB has a decent stack. If I dont hit the set Ive kept the pot small, and can get away from it if SB represents that he caught a bigger piece, or if his c/b is small enough I can call with some decent implied odds. When I do hit the set SB can go for a big number.Unless stacks dictate otherwise I'll almost always raise with QT, QJ, K7+. Early on I'll raise with garbage to see if SB is a habitual folder, but if he shows any fortitude at all, I'll just see later flops for free.That comment was regarding how to play the hand 99... Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 That comment was regarding how to play the hand 99...ahhh.my bad Link to post Share on other sites
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