jasonmason 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Guys,Just finished a relatively high-stakes tournament, it was me against a good friend, and we're having a typical arguement about who misplayed the final hand. We're both nearly even in chips with about 2,000 each. Blinds are 100-200. It went down like this:Player A: 9h JhPlayer B: 6h 6sPlayer B is button (SB = 100), raises to 450. Player A calls.Flop comes 10h 3h 3sPlayer A checksPlayer B pushes all in for about 1,500 morePlayer A callsNot going to tell how this played out just yet, or which player I was. . Just hoping for some feedback, what do you guys think? Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,355 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Guys,Just finished a relatively high-stakes tournament, it was me against a good friend, and we're having a typical arguement about who misplayed the final hand. We're both nearly even in chips with about 2,000 each. Blinds are 100-200. It went down like this:Player A: 9h JhPlayer B: 6h 6sPlayer B is button (SB = 100), raises to 450. Player A calls.Flop comes 10h 3h 3sPlayer A checksPlayer B pushes all in for about 1,500 morePlayer A callsNot going to tell how this played out just yet, or which player I was. . Just hoping for some feedback, what do you guys think?Well, unless player A was going for the check raise all in, I think his check there is dumb. He's getting the right odds to call any and all bets, as the pre flop raiser can have many, many hands, the most likely of which being two un paird over cards. If he has two unpaird over cards, and player A pushes, player a will win the pot with out having to draw out on the hand.That being said, I think player B's push is kinds dumb as well. There's no reason he needs to push the hand so hard, he's proably ahead, and should make some sore of reasonable bet, like oh, 600, If one player or the other is mad that the J9 called the all in bet, then they are just bitter. J9 of hearts has a ton of outs, and the blinds aer very big, and getting bigger all the time. But that draw, while good enough to call an all in bet when 950 is in the pot, shouldn't be played so weakly as check calling. You can win the ( very large) pot uncontested most of the time if you do the pushing yourself, and then you don't need to draw out. Link to post Share on other sites
rchang 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Guys,Just finished a relatively high-stakes tournament, it was me against a good friend, and we're having a typical arguement about who misplayed the final hand. We're both nearly even in chips with about 2,000 each. Blinds are 100-200. It went down like this:Player A: 9h JhPlayer B: 6h 6sPlayer B is button (SB = 100), raises to 450. Player A calls.Flop comes 10h 3h 3sPlayer A checksPlayer B pushes all in for about 1,500 morePlayer A callsNot going to tell how this played out just yet, or which player I was. . Just hoping for some feedback, what do you guys think?not fond of player B's push.. unless player B has a really good feel where he is at in the hand and knows a lot about his oponnent which incase you two are good friends. if i was player A i'd push all-in and put the pressure rather on player B instead of player b pushing and putting me to a tough choice and possibly laying down the flush draw.player B played the hand better than player A IMO Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 BigDMcgee's analysis is right.Although...If you have 10BB's as you do in that spot....CALLING a raise with J9 soooooted is not the greatest of ideas...With 10BB's it is a preflop game and i would rather fold/push preflop depending on my reads.Of course..since the other guy has pocket 6's....the caller with J9soooooted preflop...looks like a genius...but he is probably a donk.10bb's...push or fold preflop crapshoot poker time. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,355 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 BigDMcgee's analysis is right.Although...If you have 10BB's as you do in that spot....CALLING a raise with J9 soooooted is not the greatest of ideas...With 10BB's it is a preflop game and i would rather fold/push preflop depending on my reads.Of course..since the other guy has pocket 6's....the caller with J9soooooted preflop...looks like a genius...but he is probably a donk.10bb's...push or fold preflop crapshoot poker time.Unless you were maybe going for a stop and go. Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Unless you were maybe going for a stop and go.Which he didn't do. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,355 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Which he didn't do.Donk that he is... how much you wanna bet that the OP had the J9? Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Donk that he is... how much you wanna bet that the OP had the J9?OH...I wouldn't bet a wooden nickel.Okay..I lied...I would bet that. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,355 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 OH...I wouldn't bet a wooden nickel.Okay..I lied...I would bet that.You know, now that I think about it, I can see him being the 66 guy, pissed that he over played his small pocket pair, and that his "donk" friend "sucked out" on him... Link to post Share on other sites
jasonmason 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Author Share Posted July 24, 2006 I'm the 6-6 guy. While I wasn't happy that I had a caller, the board fell down with two blanks and I took down the pot. He had about 150 chips left and I won the tournament on the next hand. That being said, I think player B's push is kinds dumb as well. There's no reason he needs to push the hand so hard, he's proably ahead, and should make some sore of reasonable bet, like oh, 600,Why shouldn't I push? If I know I'm ahead, and given my read I absolutely knew he missed that board completely, shouldn't I want to overbet the pot and take it down right there?I was surprised that he called, because I didn't even think about a flush draw on that 10-3-3 board. . . If he has a flush draw, why would I want to bett 600, essentially pricing him in to call or re-raise me, forcing ME to make a difficult decision.Well, unless player A was going for the check raise all in, I think his check there is dumb. He's getting the right odds to call any and all bets, as the pre flop raiser can have many, many hands, the most likely of which being two un paird over cards. If he has two unpaird over cards, and player A pushes, player a will win the pot with out having to draw out on the hand.He told me after that he put me on two high cards that missed the flop, or a lower pair like what I had. So he misplayed the flop by checking. But was that really a good call, knowing that you're still a coin-flip at best? Link to post Share on other sites
Pivvy2001 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I'm the 6-6 guy. While I wasn't happy that I had a caller, the board fell down with two blanks and I took down the pot. He had about 150 chips left and I won the tournament on the next hand.Why shouldn't I push? If I know I'm ahead, and given my read I absolutely knew he missed that board completely, shouldn't I want to overbet the pot and take it down right there?I was surprised that he called, because I didn't even think about a flush draw on that 10-3-3 board. . . If he has a flush draw, why would I want to bett 600, essentially pricing him in to call or re-raise me, forcing ME to make a difficult decision.He told me after that he put me on two high cards that missed the flop, or a lower pair like what I had. So he misplayed the flop by checking. But was that really a good call, knowing that you're still a coin-flip at best?just curious, how did he completely miss the flop when he had the nut flush drawif you like your play that is fine, but no need to change the factsso if your read said he had nothing, then it was off Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,355 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I'm the 6-6 guy. While I wasn't happy that I had a caller, the board fell down with two blanks and I took down the pot. He had about 150 chips left and I won the tournament on the next hand.Why shouldn't I push? If I know I'm ahead, and given my read I absolutely knew he missed that board completely, shouldn't I want to overbet the pot and take it down right there?I was surprised that he called, because I didn't even think about a flush draw on that 10-3-3 board. . . If he has a flush draw, why would I want to bett 600, essentially pricing him in to call or re-raise me, forcing ME to make a difficult decision.He told me after that he put me on two high cards that missed the flop, or a lower pair like what I had. So he misplayed the flop by checking. But was that really a good call, knowing that you're still a coin-flip at best?Well, if you're a coin flip, and the pot has 900 from pre flop action, and 1500 from your post flop pet, he's calling 1500, to win 2400.... 62% pot equity in a 50/50 propositioni s pretty good. It woudl be very dumb for him to fold in that situation.Also, your idea of " I know I have the best hand now, I have to get him off it. Well, for one, if he has two over and a flush draw, you're not going to get him off it, nor should you ever. B you also don't know you have the best had. You very likely have the best hand, but if you do get called, you're going to have the worst hand, or a hand that you're going to be flipping against. IE Never will a worse hand call you. I think making huge over bets is one of the most common, and stupid moves in poker. Making bets that ensures the only way someone calls is they have you beat is just so dumb. If he just has two over cards, with no flush draw, you're a nice sized favorite, so... and here's the point of all this, YOU DON"T WANT HIM TO FOLD. You want to make him pay the wrong price to chase. There's nothign you can bet to make him fold the hand that he has above, but you can milk him out of money, or maybe tempt him into trying to push you off the hand, if you bet something like 500. If he has a weak hand that he's going to throw away, you dont' need to bet twice the size of the pot to make him fold. If he's folding, he's folding. And if he calls with a weak draw, then he calls, no biggie. Pushing like that, shooting your wad when you see a favorable flop, is so -ev in my opinon. Don't be afraid to play your hand post flop.Also, if you bet 600, and he re raised all in for nine hundred more, you don't have a difficult descicion at all. You call quickly. the pot has 2100, and you're calling 900 into it. The blinds are 100/200. You're getting 2.3 to one on your money to win the tourney, you call fast, not a difficult desicion at al. Link to post Share on other sites
reedmcneal 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 just curious, how did he completely miss the flop when he had the nut flush drawif you like your play that is fine, but no need to change the factsso if your read said he had nothing, then it was offFYP Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,355 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 FYPFYI, FYP means " FIxed your post" you didn't fix his post, you just bolded his mistake. Link to post Share on other sites
mhoward29 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 just curious, how did he completely miss the flop when he had the nut flush drawSo I see that the Hoyle Playing card company is cutting costs and no longer making an Ace, King or Queen of hearts...On a paired board the J9 had a stone cold weak flush draw with one over card (you dont know if your 9 is good since there is a 10 out there, so you cant count it as an out, therefore the 66's are ahead). I think he could have a better spot to call off all his chips. I hate calling all of my chips, I would rather do the pushing.That is a great flop for 66. What more could you ask for except that the board could have been rainbow? And someone said why not just bet 600 instead of all in. I see that you havent played much heads up tourney. If he only bets 600 into a 900 pot that is asking to get drawn out on. If he calls its 600 to win 1500 and if he hits his heart on the turn he is going to get the rest of the 66's chips for only 600 bucks. Personally, I think if the J9 planned on calling his chips he should have just pushed them to begin with. If I was going to play it I would want to go to the river with putting the most pressure on the other guy. I wouldnt want to just call something like 600, see the blank on the turn and then have to call off the rest of my chips to see the river.I think the 66's played it fine. There is alot of money in that pot and why not take it down now on the flop. If the J9 calls you then your money is in with the best of it. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,355 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 " If he only bets 600 into a 900 pot that is asking to get drawn out on. "This is my whole point, and I'm not longer going to be contributing to this thread, because I just know it's going to make my brain bleed, but listen, just listen. there's nothing, not one fcking thing wrong with trying to get someone to call with an inferior draw. if someone is calling with over cards, they are making a very big mistake, taking a card off calling 600, to win the 900. You wnt your opponents to make this kind of miskate. People havee this insane fear of getting drawn out on, so they are always making these retardo bets for way bigger than the pot size, because they live in such dread of the "suckout". If you're making bets significantly larger than the size of the pot, with the hope that you want to get the other person to fold, you are almost always making a mistake. Link to post Share on other sites
mhoward29 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 " If he only bets 600 into a 900 pot that is asking to get drawn out on. "This is my whole point, and I'm not longer going to be contributing to this thread, because I just know it's going to make my brain bleed, but listen, just listen. there's nothing, not one fcking thing wrong with trying to get someone to call with an inferior draw. if someone is calling with over cards, they are making a very big mistake, taking a card off calling 600, to win the 900. You wnt your opponents to make this kind of miskate. People havee this insane fear of getting drawn out on, so they are always making these retardo bets for way bigger than the pot size, because they live in such dread of the "suckout". If you're making bets significantly larger than the size of the pot, with the hope that you want to get the other person to fold, you are almost always making a mistake.I play alot of live tourney's and have made it heads up alot, weather it be in a casino or a home game. There is nothing wrong in this situation with putting in your last 8BB's to win the 5BB's that are in the pot. Thats heads up poker, try it sometime. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,355 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I play alot of live tourney's and have made it heads up alot, weather it be in a casino or a home game. There is nothing wrong in this situation with putting in your last 8BB's to win the 5BB's that are in the pot. Thats heads up poker, try it sometime.And ther's nothing wrong with value betting either, you stooge. Link to post Share on other sites
mhoward29 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 And ther's nothing wrong with value betting either, you stooge.There is no such thing as value betting when you dont even have double the pot size in your stack. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,355 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 There is no such thing as value betting when you dont even have double the pot size in your stack.LOL k. Link to post Share on other sites
Dirtydutch 8 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 There is no such thing as value betting when you dont even have double the pot size in your stack.No. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,355 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 No.About six months ago, when just about the only place I posted was general, I would get all pissy when that OT and Strat folks would come into general, and talk about what a cesspool it was. Now I understand a lil better. Today's trip into my old stomping grounds has been enlightening. Link to post Share on other sites
mhoward29 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 No.No as in you disagree? I really dont see how you can value bet with $1500 in your stack when there is $900 in the pot with the blinds at $100-$200 and rising. So what are you going to do? Bet $600, a blank comes then bet the rest of your $900 into a $2300 pot, which is giving the guy even better pot odds to call you than he would have gotten on the turn?Why not cut him off now and take the $900 in there?I really think none of you that have posted in this thread know anything about heads up play in a tourney with 2 small stacks in comparision to the blinds. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,355 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 No as in you disagree? I really dont see how you can value bet with $1500 in your stack when there is $900 in the pot with the blinds at $100-$200 and rising. So what are you going to do? Bet $600, a blank comes then bet the rest of your $900 into a $2300 pot, which is giving the guy even better pot odds to call you than he would have gotten on the turn?Why not cut him off now and take the $900 in there?I really think none of you that have posted in this thread know anything about heads up play in a tourney with 2 small stacks in comparision to the blinds.Whats wrong with having a worse hand call nine hundred there? Seriously, are you that afraid of 6 outers? lol. Link to post Share on other sites
mhoward29 0 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Whats wrong with having a worse hand call nine hundred there? Seriously, are you that afraid of 6 outers? lol.So there are only 3 jacks and 3 hearts in the deck now? Thats not including the 3 nine's that are in there too. Learn to count. 9 hearts, 3 jacks, 3 nines.... equals.......!!! Link to post Share on other sites
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