Why I'll Never Be Good

[Actuary 3]

Meh, it is after all just paper my friend

Dhall,the best players don't pride themselves on folding QQ here.you are much like Rocket, in that you are both very stubborn.it's more about the math at the level you play than the opponents.your "reads" will lose you a ton of money.Last night, 6 Man SnG, down to 4.I open for 275 (blinds 50/100) with Jh 9h from 1st pos.Button call, Blinds fold. Pot: 700Flop: 346. Two Hearts on board.I bet 550.He types: "Pocket Js" and foldsI said, "yeah right"He: "no I did, really"Me: "what suits?"He: "Diamond and Club."well, he was 50/50 to say Heart. Aftr chatting more I believed him. I said, "why would you fold an overpair there" He: "You bet like you had a monster" Me: "I hit the flop". He: "lol, it was 346. You hit that?". Me: "66 hits that flop pretty strong, heh? I was concerned about the flush draw."

[Dhall901 0]

Stubborn I am indeed. Point well taken.I love how you played the J9. Opening early with it, then keeping the pressure on. I don't understand how your opponent got away from Jacks, but you played the hand perfectly.

[monix 0]

I don't want to sound rude or condescending or whatever, but there's really no need for such drawn-out analysis. Really, I don't understand why players complicate the easiest parts of poker. You flop a set, you river 2nd best fullhouse; unless you've got tremendous reads, like your opponent takes his penis out when he has a set of aces, and he takes his penis out here, you put your money in. And when the situation is reversed, your opponent will pay you off. These are unavoidable situations in the game.Too much time/effort spent on hands that play themselves.

Hey, I said in my intro that I was going to spend less time playing, and more time analysing to try and develop a deeper understanding of the game.Quote:"...guy behind in the cutoff reraises to 3200, it screams the two hands I'm worried about. I took time and almost folded cuz the guy was tight and only played few hands."This is the first time I have done this and I learned something => If I am holding QQ and I open the pot with a decent raise (and I have TAG image), and another TAG re-raises me, if I put him on AA or KK 100% of the time, I need to consider folding, because I will lose a big pot 82% of the time...OP did not lay the hand down based on his read.Once the Q hit the flop, the analysis confirmed what everyone "felt".Again, if there was a mistake made in this hand, if was calling the pre-flop raise, not in the post-flop play.

[Dhall901 0]

Hey, I said in my intro that I was going to spend less time playing, and more time analysing to try and develop a deeper understanding of the game.Quote:"...guy behind in the cutoff reraises to 3200, it screams the two hands I'm worried about. I took time and almost folded cuz the guy was tight and only played few hands."This is the first time I have done this and I learned something => If I am holding QQ and I open the pot with a decent raise (and I have TAG image), and another TAG re-raises me, if I put him on AA or KK 100% of the time, I need to consider folding, because I will lose a big pot 82% of the time...OP did not lay the hand down based on his read.Once the Q hit the flop, the analysis confirmed what everyone "felt".Again, if there was a mistake made in this hand, if was calling the pre-flop raise, not in the post-flop play.

I absolutely agree. I didn't trust my preflop read. I remember actually saying out loud "let's see if I can catch a lucky flop". In retrospect I was hoping to hit my set rather cheap and bust his KK or AA, or be able to get a way for a board like A K 3..or even A J 3. Once I hit, and he hit (1.5% of the time mind you) I was dead to rights.

[reverbse 0]

I studied for two minutes, trying to come up with a reason to call. Finally, logic prevailed, and I threw my hand toward the muck. Nathan, in a nice gesture, flashed his pocket Aces. I grabbed my cards from the edge of the muck and 'triumphantly' displayed my pocket Queens, which sent the table into a minor frenzy."

Barry Greenstein doesn´t fold middle sets in small-buy-in mtts on stars. i didn´t ask him about it, but i´m sure. seriously, to base a play on a read/gut feelingin live poker you have: betting patterns, gestures, facial expressions, other body language, voice, eyes...in online poker you have: betting patternswhat´s really behind "feeling" that someone has aces? a player reraises --> you´re holding a very good hand but it´s still beatable--> the hands you fear become dominant in your imaginationit just reminds me a lot of the people that "know that they will lose" once they´re on a bad run.

[Dhall901 0]

Barry Greenstein doesn´t fold middle sets in small-buy-in mtts on stars. i didn´t ask him about it, but i´m sure. seriously, to base a play on a read/gut feelingin live poker you have: betting patterns, gestures, facial expressions, other body language, voice, eyes...in online poker you have: betting patternswhat´s really behind "feeling" that someone has aces? a player reraises --> you´re holding a very good hand but it´s still beatable--> the hands you fear become dominant in your imaginationit just reminds me a lot of the people that "know that they will lose" once they´re on a bad run.

I see your point, but you have misjudged me my friend. Any one of the 7 other guys could have made the same move and I probably would have pushed all in. I can't continue to argue because as much as I say I knew I was beat, I still put chips in, so I'm retarded. If JohnDoeplayseveryhand plays me like this, I'm pushing and chalkin it up to his advantage as being ridiculously loose and aggressive consistently. In any event, the lesson here is trust your gut, I didn't, hopefully one day I will be able to do just that.

[mikeysong 0]

In any event, the lesson here is trust your gut, I didn't, hopefully one day I will be able to do just that.

that was my point. trusting your gut. I'm not saying the QQ call was right or wrong, I'm saying he should've went with what he trusted.obviously your gut can be wrong, but instincts can be trained. The more experience you get, the better your judgement will be (hopefully). I'd rather play poker according to my reads on someone rather than just pure math. "Oh, the chance of him having a set here is such a low %, he may be a tight player but I'm going to win this battle a majority of the time" isn't my style. I'm not saying to completely ignore math, but hey, if you really believe the guy has a hand and you're pretty sure you're not overreacting, put your money where your mouth is and follow through.

[Actuary 3]

hopeless.

[Dhall901 0]

that was my point. trusting your gut. I'm not saying the QQ call was right or wrong, I'm saying he should've went with what he trusted.obviously your gut can be wrong, but instincts can be trained. The more experience you get, the better your judgement will be (hopefully). I'd rather play poker according to my reads on someone rather than just pure math. "Oh, the chance of him having a set here is such a low %, he may be a tight player but I'm going to win this battle a majority of the time" isn't my style. I'm not saying to completely ignore math, but hey, if you really believe the guy has a hand and you're pretty sure you're not overreacting, put your money where your mouth is and follow through.

NH. Anyone want to start a debate over NL vs. Limit. Just Kidding. Obviously there is no arguing the math of any given situation, but the people factor is what intrigues me so much about poker. Every hand can be approached so many different ways, the whole butterfly effect/chaos theory..it's insane!

[monix 0]

I absolutely agree. I didn't trust my preflop read. I remember actually saying out loud "let's see if I can catch a lucky flop". In retrospect I was hoping to hit my set rather cheap and bust his KK or AA, or be able to get a way for a board like A K 3..or even A J 3. Once I hit, and he hit (1.5% of the time mind you) I was dead to rights.

In an effort to keep this thread going...:-)Here is a ring game hand I had on Monday, so this thread was timely...Villian was 24.6/6.5/1.25 over 65 hands...Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero ($102.15)UTG+1 ($104.80)MP1 ($101.40)MP2 ($98.50)CO ($108.95)Button ($90.25)SB ($13.20)BB ($146.16)Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2, 2. SB posts a blind of $0.50. Hero calls $1, 4 folds, Button calls $1, 1 fold, BB raises to $4, Hero calls $4, Button folds.Flop: ($11.50) 2, Q, J(2 players)BB bets $8, Hero raises to $20, BB calls $12.Turn: ($51.50) A(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $20, BB raises to $100, Hero ????

[reverbse 0]

don´t want to make this a subsection of the nl-forum, but that´s an interesting hand

In an effort to keep this thread going...:-)Here is a ring game hand I had on Monday, so this thread was timely...Villian was 24.6/6.5/1.25 over 65 hands...Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero ($102.15)UTG+1 ($104.80)MP1 ($101.40)MP2 ($98.50)CO ($108.95)Button ($90.25)SB ($13.20)BB ($146.16)Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2, 2. SB posts a blind of $0.50. Hero calls $1, 4 folds, Button calls $1, 1 fold, BB raises to $4, Hero calls $4, Button folds.

out of the BB, but only to 4x. should be a strong hand.

Flop: ($11.50) 2, Q, J(2 players)BB bets $8, Hero raises to $20, BB calls $12.Turn: ($51.50) A(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $20, BB raises to $100, Hero calls $57.15 (All-In).

his check here really only makes sense if he´s holding a high , so that he isn´t worried about you checking behind. he can neither have the Q or J , which leads me to believe that he didn´t flop a set. he could haveA A (why not reraise the flop?)K K (tuff-fish voice: i lost with kings an hour ago, now if this guy thinks he can move me off...jesus christ...just put it all in, i´m gonna show this fogger i have no fear, godammit!) - remote possibility, but i could see some players doing this if they think you don´t have an aceA K - A K or A Qdespite reading his preflop raise as strength, for some reason i keep thinking that he could very well have AQ.lift the curtain please.

[copernicus 0]

Just a general thought thats probably already be mentioned, though maybe in more specifcally in terms of this hand.Playing scared's biggest symptom is looking for "monsters under the bed". The best way to combat that is to put the opponent on a range of hands instead of focusing on one or two, and then eliminating those that are inconsistent with the later play.Giving extra weight to your specific reads is fine, though I would never give any hand more than 50% extra weight over its normal combinations.