Kj Of Clubs With 4 Left

[Shizzmoney 0]

A 10 dollar double stack tourney on Full Tilt. 4 left. Payouts at 1350-900-650-450. It's been a wild table, so I was able to sit back and move up with an average stack.We are the short stack @ 148K. With the blinds at 6K/12K and the antes at 2K a man (pot 26K), and find the K J UTG. We raise to 48K.Folded to the BB, who goes all-in for 288K. It's 100K to call into a 210K pot. I have NO solid read on this opponent, as he was the only player of the 3 I had not sat with the entire touney (the other two were super aggressive, so I probably would have called their bet). The only hand I saw him play was when he jammed for 100K UTG with AA and got called with QQ (hence why he got his stack).I put him on a range 3 hands:AQ8's-10'sQQ/AK But it really felt like AQ to me. Should I have drawn my line in the sand here and just said "f*ck it, lets gamble"?

[zimmer4141 0]

I hate the 4BB raise preflop. Getting almost 2-1 and considering folding would leave us with an M of about 5 shorthanded, I think we have to call. Raise to 2.5BB, 3BB max preflop. Keep the pot small with your preflop raise considering you have a marginal hand.

[Shizzmoney 0]

I hate the 4BB raise preflop

I wasn't thrilled with it either, but this was the standard raise players were folding to at the table. The stacks were: 148, 288, 488, and 670.Me thinks that I maybe I could have KillPhilled this one and just jammed preflop and it he wakes up with a hand, ces't la vie. Even though the hand is marginal, KJ suited in a 4 handed game is decent. Not great, but decent.

[zimmer4141 0]

It's decent, but still not a hand I want to be playing for all my chips, even 4 handed. I think you've committed yourself, so go with it and gamble from here.If we give him a wide range, AT+, 77+, KQ, we're still not even a 2-1 dog, so the call is justified.

[Shizzmoney 0]

If we give him a wide range, AT+, 77+, KQ, we're still not even a 2-1 dog, so the call is justified.

Yeah, in the end I should have just called because I ended up going out on KJs anyways!

[fckthis 0]

Arg, you commited 30% of your stack here. I just wouldnt like to call in this spot. I know it sounds nitty, but regardless of the pot odds, with the table you described, you may be able to finish 2nd here, without doing much. So Im inclined to folding here.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Your pre-flop raise made no sense if you weren't going to call an all-in bet behind you here. You have committed more than 25% of your stack (I haven't checked the math) pre-flop, only to fold to a raise behind you? This is a near perfect example of a push or fold UTG spot IMO, leaning very heavily towards pushing with your M of less than 3. If someone wakes up with a hand behind you, so be it.

[Actuary 3]

how is this debateable?Push Preflop.

[timwakefield 68]

how is this debateable?Push Preflop.

I wholeheartedly agree. As you played it you have to call.

[Rocketwadster 0]

how is this debateable?Push Preflop.

Who's debating? You and I agree for once, so this should be s fairly small thread.

[Actuary 3]

Raise to 2.5BB, 3BB max preflop. Keep the pot small with your preflop raise considering you have a marginal hand.

I think Zim disagrees.*********************I need to post though, about how I pretty much suck post flop with M ~ 7 - 10.I'll be on the bubble and basically fold/push a ton while the other three are mixing it up with worse than 2nd pair and weak draws, like we were still deep stacks. I panic and don't want to play tiddlywinks when I'm short..the only argument to fold this preflop would be if table was so wild that your odds to finish 2nd were pretty strong from just folding.. but it would have to be really wild, imo

[zimmer4141 0]

I guess this is just my experience, but I like to play postflop poker for as long as I can, mostly because I feel I have an advantage against my opponents postflop. I hate pushing here when I'm not quite desperate because it takes away any skill advantage I have over my opponent. The worst postflop player in the world can beat me by picking up AK in this spot.I also don't really like the Harrington concept of Effective M. I understand what he is trying to say, and I understand it to a point. However, I think saying that in this spot we have an M of 3 (due to effective M) is ludacris. With an actual M of 10, or a stack of 260k, our effective M is about 4. Are we pushing 260k into a BB of 12k? I think shorthanded there is more room for small pot poker, and you don't have to push in many cases, especially if you feel you are better than your opponents.

[Actuary 3]

Zim,as noted, I'm trying to work on post flop play with short stack..so I'll ask you:If the flop comes J or K high, and you are not raised preflop, I assume you'd be all in on the flop ? Maybe unless it's mono-suited and it's pushed into you.Since you will miss the flop 2/3 times, (not couting some flush draws), how do you play if donk bet into by the BB, for example. That's what always happens to me. I get whittled away and finally resort to just pushing. It used to amaze me that I was doing as well as I was, lately, though, I'm bubbling too much. And think post flop play late is my problemthanks!

[zimmer4141 0]

I am not the foremost expert on Low M postflop play, because a lot of my Sngs still have high Ms when it gets to shorthanded.If a K or J hits, I'm all in no matter what. If I miss, and BB donkbets, then I fold. I save my chips and wait for another hand. If I miss and it's checked to me, I bet and fold if he c/r. Basically it's Orange Zone poker, where you play aggressively until you're played back at with no hand.

[Actuary 3]

that's my problem, I forget about orange.Red and Green are my comfort zonesI need to keep that in mind, thanks!

[zimmer4141 0]

that's my problem, I forget about orange.Red and Green are my comfort zonesI need to keep that in mind, thanks!

Honestly, if you play MTTs, the Orange Zone will be where you spend a lot of your time. Learning to negotiate through hands with a shorter stack, but not quite a push/fold stack is key.

[tskillz187 0]

I like Zim's way of playing the hand better than PF push. (I'm always raising at 2.5bb this late) But, I am not sure that Zim's way is correct, it's just how I play it all the time, but I do often find myself getting hurt by some of the stronger tourney players on UB when it gets late.

[Actuary 3]

I get played back at too often preflop or post flop in these situations and thus will push this. Maybe I"m just remembering those instances more, like the times I"m c/rd on rivers and therefore stop valuebetting TopPair (limit cash games)