This Is Why I Am A Vegan

[Petoria 0]

Wow, this thread was A LOT of fun to read until Petoria came along and made it all serious again....but thank you guys for the VERY entertaining read...

I always do that, what the fuck.

[cu in 4years Dan 1]

I probably made a rash generalization with the logic comment. I don't see it being logical though to not eat meat bc you think death is bad. Your premise is flawed. Death is not bad, death is natural, death is going to happen. I would be willing to argue that, in general, animals that are slaughtered do not suffer. There are a few extreme cases where animal cruelty has happened, and that is wrong. I dont think it's a reason to condemn the whole industry though.I know I was kind of grasping at straws with the chicken comment. Allergies are a logical reason. In general, though, meat is healthy.

yeah death is going to happen, but its not going to happen if we dont make it happen you get what i mean?

You had a good post until this part.What defines a perfect world that would create a utopia?To comment on the world being a better "perfect" place, one would have to strive for Utopia, meaning everyone has everything they ever need.You cant have a utopian society if meat is not allowed; because in my world, I want steak every friday.No world is perfect until every single persons needs are satisfied. Animals have needs and wants too you say? Well lets address that issue.Do animals know the difference from pain or pleasure?. My basic observation is Yes. Can animals comprehend basic communication amongst each other in order to aquire certain needs and wants to satisfy their demands?My guess is no, (observe two dogs and 2 cookies, place both cookies together and see if a discussion brews about the division of food)So you see kids, we learn here today that animals would not be able to specify certain conditions in which to live.We as hominins can express ourselves in a way that a perfect understanding can be reached.Can a utopian society ever exist? perhaps, can this world evolve to be one? No. never.So do we reach 1 step closer to this by eliminating the killing of animals? of course not, thats absurd

i get what you mean about utopia not being possible because without meat not everyone would be happy.but i think your argument about the 2 dogs and 2 cookies are absurd.of course 2 dogs cant talk to eachother about the fine meal they had at biviano's the other night, but it doesnt mean that they cant specify of want a certain standard of living

[Petoria 0]

i get what you mean about utopia not being possible because without meat not everyone would be happy.but i think your argument about the 2 dogs and 2 cookies are absurd.of course 2 dogs cant talk to eachother about the fine meal they had at biviano's the other night, but it doesnt mean that they cant specify of want a certain standard of living

That's not a coherent thought, especially the bolded part. I hope you're not trying to say what I think you're trying to say. I'm going to give you a little more credit than that and just let you explain it a little further.

[loogie 115]

animal fars

Is it bad that I am turned on by the fact that she has eight freezers full of juicy goodness?

i also guarente i am smarter than you

me + this thread = love

[ricker 0]

me + this thread = love

+1 to the infinite!

[KONGOS 0]

So I read through all 11 pages of this thread and I will now reply. This might be long...very long, but try to read it all because I think it will be beneficial to the debate. Also, all these personal insults detract from the discussion - let's have an intelligent argument.I was born and raised vegetarian. About 3 years ago I became vegan - I'm now 20. My reasons are health, moral, and environmental. 30 BILLION animals (including aquatic) are slaughtered each year in the United States alone. Without taking into account the people who intentionally torture them, animals are raised in horrendous conditions, not seeing the light of day and crammed into spaces that render them un-movable. In most other situations, were it not a "farm", it would be considered torture and animal cruelty. In the modern Western world, it is unnecessary to eat meat, fish or chicken (or even eggs/dairy). That is, in order to get a healthy, balanced diet, there is no need to eat animal products. It is incredibly easy to get enough protein in a vegetarian/vegan diet - I've done it for 20 years. I never take supplements or drugs of any kind. I took Anti-biotics once in my life when I was a very young kid with an ear infection. Contrary to popular belief, there are sources of active vitamin b12 from plants and there are more than enough sources for omega 3 fatty acids. There is no cholesterol in a vegan diet whatsoever. In fact, according to research done by the American Heart Association, cutting down on or even eliminating meat (especially red meat) from your diet significantly decreases your chances of heart attack and heart disease. Cancer risks, including prostate and colon cancer, also decrease significantly with the reduced consumption of meat and dairy.Another side is the environment. 56% of US farmland is devoted to livestock production. 80% of corn and 95% of oats in this country are consumed by animals. If the United States reduced their intake of meat by just 10%, the freed land could produce enough food to adequately feed 100 million people a year. Half of all water consumed in the US is for livestock production. It takes 5000 gallons of water to produce one pound of beef as apposed to 25 gallons for a pound of wheat.Now, on to PETA....Many loonies as well as intelligent people support them. The focus should not be on the actions of protesters but rather on this principle: Humane treatment of animals. There are some things about PETA that I absolutely disagree with but in general I think they do more good than harm. You wouldn't believe what they have accomplished in the cosmetic industry and in the rejection of fur by major retailers. If Ingrid Newkirk did in fact support a member of the Animal Liberation Front in a bombing, that is absolutely intolerable and disgracefull. However, there was no conviction and/or concrete evidence of the collaboration so I will give her the benefit of the doubt over Pen and Teller any day - they have yet to make a good show. They completely contradict themselves. One week they do a show dismissing the uses/benefits of herbs and alternative medicines and the next week they do a show about drugs and the tremendous advantages Marijuana has. They then put down accupuncture - a 5000 year old method of healing which undeniably works for some. Give me a break.As a vegan, I'm not trying to change the world and make everyone else stop eating meat. The prime objective should be to reduce cruelty....to all species. Mahatma Gandhi said, "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Albert Einstein said, "Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."And just to convince you that not all vegans/vegetarians are lunatic, hippy, communist, pansies.....here is a list of some great men (some alive, some dead), who were vegetarians:Albert EinsteinCharles DarwinLeonardo Da VinciPythagorasRalph Waldo EmersonHenry David ThoreauGeorge Bernard ShawAll four BeatlesCarl LewisDaniel Negreanu Bill Pearl (4 time Mr. Universe)Bob Dylan

[davezz5 0]

im not against that.i hate spiders.

It's ok to kill and tourture spiders because you dont like them? If you had a similar dislike for larger animals, i.e Cows, would it then be ok to kill and eat them? Also, if a certain species of spider had the qualities of taste and nutrition, would you be opposed to eating it?

[DMBroller 0]

yeah death is going to happen, but its not going to happen if we dont make it happen you get what i mean?

I don't really.....what I mean is.....my brain......so numb......can't.........

[Suited_Up 2]

It's ok to kill and tourture spiders because you dont like them? If you had a similar dislike for larger animals, i.e Cows, would it then be ok to kill and eat them? Also, if a certain species of spider had the qualities of taste and nutrition, would you be opposed to eating it?

You must not try to rationlize anything he says. It WILL cause your head to explode. I'm just serious.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

As a vegan, I'm not trying to change the world and make everyone else stop eating meat. The prime objective should be to reduce cruelty....to all species. Mahatma Gandhi said, "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Albert Einstein said, "Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."

Great Post. I didn't know Einstein said that. I guess he's smarter than he looks.

[Jeepster80125 0]

So your argument is because famous and or smart people were vegetarian, it is therefore the right thing to do.As long as we are debating the innocent and maybe cruel death of animals that we eat, what abou the red pepper that I chopped up, tore it's guts out, and friend on the grill last night? You say in one sentence that it is wrong because it is a living thing (cows, chickens and the like) but so are vegetables, and not only do you kill maim, and slaughter vegetables, you vegans only eat those. So who are you to judge me when I include things with four legs? It is the stupidest argument you can make. But I don't really expect a vegan to understand this argument. Keep eating vegetables and taking hundreds of supplements and vitamins that you need because of your feelings for the treatment of animals. Good luck with that.I'm out.

[RhinestoneCowboy 2]

I would stop arguing us and go after TGI Fridays...BEEF!!!!!SAUSAGE!!!!!!Vegetable Medleeeyyyyyyy

[LongLiveYorke 38]

As long as we are debating the innocent and maybe cruel death of animals that we eat, what abou the red pepper that I chopped up, tore it's guts out, and friend on the grill last night? You say in one sentence that it is wrong because it is a living thing (cows, chickens and the like) but so are vegetables, and not only do you kill maim, and slaughter vegetables, you vegans only eat those.

Well, I would argue that the value of a life is based on the intelligence of the being. Though this way of thinking has some flaws, I think that it is the most self consistent and meaningful way to discern. So plants, which have no intelligence or consciousness and are little more than machines have little value (on the individual scale, of course. Obviously plants are valuable as a whole as is any species. We're talking about comparing individuals). Thus, killing an ant isn't as bad as killing a chicken which isn't as bad as killing a dolphin which isn't as bad as killing a person (which isn't as bad as killing a God, etc). This way of comparing comes across as cold and heartless because to an extent it is, but it's really the only quantitative way of scaling things that makes sense (to me).

So your argument is because famous and or smart people were vegetarian, it is therefore the right thing to do.

Obviously not, but you already knew that. He made very good arguments. If you'd like to contribute, please make counter arguments. Your killing of peppers thing was a good start (at least it was an attempt at a counter argument). Keep it up, this is how discussions work.

[Royal_Tour 0]

As a vegan, I'm not trying to change the world and make everyone else stop eating meat. The prime objective should be to reduce cruelty....to all species. Mahatma Gandhi said, "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Albert Einstein said, "Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."And just to convince you that not all vegans/vegetarians are lunatic, hippy, communist, pansies.....here is a list of some great men (some alive, some dead), who were vegetarians:Albert EinsteinCharles DarwinLeonardo Da VinciPythagorasRalph Waldo EmersonHenry David ThoreauGeorge Bernard ShawAll four BeatlesCarl LewisDaniel Negreanu Bill Pearl (4 time Mr. Universe)Bob Dylan

Wow, u have a strong stance, good for you.oh P.S. - Einstein was NOT a vegetarian, some people say for his last year of living he was, but it was not 100% certain. (which means that he died a year after turning vegetarian if it was true)Da Vinci, Also not certain, But what we do know is he dug up corpses in graveyards, so who knows what was going on in his head.oh 1 more thing, please dont use stats that are useless in such a debate. Its the same as me continuing to state the infestation of animals throughout the world if 30 billion ++ animals continue to live every year, we'llno longer be eating them, but rather fighting them for the fruits and vegetables we're trying to live from

[avsfan 0]

"Well, I would argue that the value of a life is based on the intelligence of the being. Though this way of thinking has some flaws, I think that it is the most self consistent and meaningful way to discern." -LLYSome flaws? It is The Biggest Flaw of All. Intelligence? Ppl made this intelligence thing up. Think about it. Don't most ism start with some group feeling more smart/intellagent. BOOOO to this intelligence concept and idea.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Why do so many assume that vegetables do not feel pain?

Great Post. I didn't know Einstein said that. I guess he's smarter than he looks.

I'd say; he made $20 million last year alone.

[avsfan 0]

If I died of natural causes and had a normal healthy life. I would be ok with someone or something eating me. fwiw. If I was raised as food and treated horribly then I would be like "This Sucks". I think the problems lie in responsibility and respect. The meat industry should treat the animals to a natural normal healthy life and a natural death. After death the meat product could then be sold for a premium. Animals should be treated with respect and given rights to natural normal healthy lives. Awarness in our consumption and severe change in our treatment of animals in our "food industries"could make this a win win, sort of. Hey, I would be cool with it myself.

[KONGOS 0]

So your argument is because famous and or smart people were vegetarian, it is therefore the right thing to do.As long as we are debating the innocent and maybe cruel death of animals that we eat, what abou the red pepper that I chopped up, tore it's guts out, and friend on the grill last night? You say in one sentence that it is wrong because it is a living thing (cows, chickens and the like) but so are vegetables, and not only do you kill maim, and slaughter vegetables, you vegans only eat those. So who are you to judge me when I include things with four legs? It is the stupidest argument you can make. But I don't really expect a vegan to understand this argument. Keep eating vegetables and taking hundreds of supplements and vitamins that you need because of your feelings for the treatment of animals. Good luck with that.I'm out.

If you read my post, "famous people" was the last thing I mentioned. I mentioned them to show that not all vegetarians/vegans are hippy, loonies. Do you not distinguish between levels of life? Is a vegetable really on the same level as a human being? Not all living things are "equal". If humans were being raised for food would you have no qualms about it because you don't see a difference in the level of life. We need to eat to survive, but since it is not necessary to kill animals to live, I eat plants - in my opinion, a lower form of life. Not only that, I believe it is a more effecient form of energy therefore better for your health. If it was necessary to eat meat to survive, I would......If it was necessary to eat humans I would. And as I said in my last post, I don't take supplements of any kind. I don't need to. If you pay attention to what you eat as a vegan you can easily get all the nutrients you need.

[KONGOS 0]

Wow, u have a strong stance, good for you.oh P.S. - Einstein was NOT a vegetarian, some people say for his last year of living he was, but it was not 100% certain. (which means that he died a year after turning vegetarian if it was true)Da Vinci, Also not certain, But what we do know is he dug up corpses in graveyards, so who knows what was going on in his head.oh 1 more thing, please dont use stats that are useless in such a debate. Its the same as me continuing to state the infestation of animals throughout the world if 30 billion ++ animals continue to live every year, we'llno longer be eating them, but rather fighting them for the fruits and vegetables we're trying to live from

Here is another quote from Einstein. "So I am living without fats, without meat, without fish, but am feeling quite well this way. It always seems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore." March 30, 1954 from a letter written to Hans Muehsam. It is generally accepted based on his writings that he became a vegetarian near the end of his life, but supported the idea for much much longer as you can see from some of his quotes.Da Vinci was most certainly a vegetarian. Some quotes: "As long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap the joy of love. "The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men." "Truely man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds theirs. We live by the death of others: we are burial places! I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men." Also, he dug up corpses to study the mechanics of a human being in order to further his art and knowledge. He didn't just do it for fun.Just for your information, 30 billion animals didn't "just exist" in the United States. We don't go and hunt these animals for food. They are raised and killed in the hundreds and thousands a day. If we didn't raise them there wouldn't be so many. And what useless stats? I think the statistics I mentioned are quite relevant. I understand that statistics are not allways accurate and are sometimes used in one's agenda but from my research the ones I mentioned seem to be widely accepted.

[Randy Reed 0]

Do animals have souls?

[avsfan 0]

Do animals have souls?

I sure hope so. I hope we have them too.

[Yoda 1]

Do animals have souls?

Easy there, take it to the religion forum lol

[Petoria 0]

Well, I would argue that the value of a life is based on the intelligence of the being. Though this way of thinking has some flaws, I think that it is the most self consistent and meaningful way to discern. So plants, which have no intelligence or consciousness and are little more than machines have little value (on the individual scale, of course. Obviously plants are valuable as a whole as is any species. We're talking about comparing individuals). Thus, killing an ant isn't as bad as killing a chicken which isn't as bad as killing a dolphin which isn't as bad as killing a person (which isn't as bad as killing a God, etc). This way of comparing comes across as cold and heartless because to an extent it is, but it's really the only quantitative way of scaling things that makes sense (to me).

Do you have any idea how smart ants are. They build fucking cave systems underground. I'd be willing to argue that ants are one of the most intelligent species on the planet. I think what you're really saying is don't kill big things, bc.......I dont know. What about lemmings? If I wanted to eat a lemming, would that be ok? I mean, how smart do you have to be to follow your friends off the side of a cliff? Sounds like a pretty dumb animal. Is it ok to eat them?

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Do you have any idea how smart ants are. They build fucking cave systems underground. I'd be willing to argue that ants are one of the most intelligent species on the planet. I think what you're really saying is don't kill big things, bc.......I dont know. What about lemmings? If I wanted to eat a lemming, would that be ok? I mean, how smart do you have to be to follow your friends off the side of a cliff? Sounds like a pretty dumb animal. Is it ok to eat them?

Ants are quite stupid. What you perceive as "smart" is actually emergent behavior. It's the sum of a few simple instincts. For example, ants are programmed to follow smell trails left by other ants (and they do so blindly). They "find food and keep getting it" only because they follow the trails left by others that have coincidentally found food before. Really, believe me, they're quite stupid. It's like bird flight formations. They seem complicated and intricate, but in fact they are based basically one rule: If you see a bird flying, fly behind him and a bit to the side and follow him. Bird flocking patterns are the emergent behavior of this simple instinct. This does not make them smart, it only makes "mother nature" smart.

I think what you're really saying is don't kill big things, bc.......I dont know.

Obviously not. Elephants are bigger than humans. I'd rather have an elephant die than a human. Many trees are bigger than elephants. I'd rather chop down a tree than kill an elephant. QED

[Petoria 0]

So I read through all 11 pages of this thread and I will now reply. This might be long...very long, but try to read it all because I think it will be beneficial to the debate. Also, all these personal insults detract from the discussion - let's have an intelligent argument.I was born and raised vegetarian. About 3 years ago I became vegan - I'm now 20. My reasons are health, moral, and environmental. 30 BILLION animals (including aquatic) are slaughtered each year in the United States alone. Without taking into account the people who intentionally torture them, animals are raised in horrendous conditions, not seeing the light of day and crammed into spaces that render them un-movable. In most other situations, were it not a "farm", it would be considered torture and animal cruelty. In the modern Western world, it is unnecessary to eat meat, fish or chicken (or even eggs/dairy). That is, in order to get a healthy, balanced diet, there is no need to eat animal products. It is incredibly easy to get enough protein in a vegetarian/vegan diet - I've done it for 20 years. I never take supplements or drugs of any kind. I took Anti-biotics once in my life when I was a very young kid with an ear infection. Contrary to popular belief, there are sources of active vitamin b12 from plants and there are more than enough sources for omega 3 fatty acids. There is no cholesterol in a vegan diet whatsoever. In fact, according to research done by the American Heart Association, cutting down on or even eliminating meat (especially red meat) from your diet significantly decreases your chances of heart attack and heart disease. Cancer risks, including prostate and colon cancer, also decrease significantly with the reduced consumption of meat and dairy.Another side is the environment. 56% of US farmland is devoted to livestock production. 80% of corn and 95% of oats in this country are consumed by animals. If the United States reduced their intake of meat by just 10%, the freed land could produce enough food to adequately feed 100 million people a year. Half of all water consumed in the US is for livestock production. It takes 5000 gallons of water to produce one pound of beef as apposed to 25 gallons for a pound of wheat.Now, on to PETA....Many loonies as well as intelligent people support them. The focus should not be on the actions of protesters but rather on this principle: Humane treatment of animals. There are some things about PETA that I absolutely disagree with but in general I think they do more good than harm. You wouldn't believe what they have accomplished in the cosmetic industry and in the rejection of fur by major retailers. If Ingrid Newkirk did in fact support a member of the Animal Liberation Front in a bombing, that is absolutely intolerable and disgracefull. However, there was no conviction and/or concrete evidence of the collaboration so I will give her the benefit of the doubt over Pen and Teller any day - they have yet to make a good show. They completely contradict themselves. One week they do a show dismissing the uses/benefits of herbs and alternative medicines and the next week they do a show about drugs and the tremendous advantages Marijuana has. They then put down accupuncture - a 5000 year old method of healing which undeniably works for some. Give me a break.As a vegan, I'm not trying to change the world and make everyone else stop eating meat. The prime objective should be to reduce cruelty....to all species. Mahatma Gandhi said, "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Albert Einstein said, "Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."

Did you know PETA supports "TOTAL ANIMAL LIBERATION"? I know it's from Penn & Teller, whom I already know you dislike, but the quote is from Ingrid Newkunt (sp?). Do you have any idea what that means? No pets, no animal experimentation on drugs, no dogs for the blind, no drug sniffing dogs, no nothing. Just animals running the fuck around doing what they want. (btw, Acupuncture is bullshit, it doesnt actually help anyone, but I dont want to rant.)I don't have a problem with you not eating meat, I think it's fine and dandy, more meat for me. When people start protesting animal shelters and preaching their propaganda, and convincing young people, who really don't have anything else in life, to join their flawed organization, that's where i have a problem. I think it's cool to not eat meat, I even think it's cool to have a club where you don't eat meat. What is not cool is telling me that I'm wrong bc I do enjoy meat. The fact is that animals don't have the same rights as people, they are lower than us, as LongLiveYork already admitted. As such, we should be free to eat them, bc that is the way nature works.It may very well be healthier to live as a vegan, but it's my life. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong, I just don't think it's the most logical decision. I agree that cruelty to animals is wrong, and those who have posted otherwise are fucking assholes. The propaganda you see is not the standard, it is the exception. I don't think we have a responsibility to protect animals, but I can understand how some people would feel that way. If I had a farm, I'd kill my own food, but I don't have that luxury. Therefore, I must still buy meat bc I enjoy it, and it's good for you.