$0.5/$1 Top Pair, Str8 Draw On Dangerous Board

[tapeworm 0]

Ok, I would like some input on this hand. I made a good read on the river, typed his hand into the chat, and made a loose call. (As I side note I really am starting to need a time bank if anyone knows a site that has one for cash games as I am making terrible decisions under pressure last two days). Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)BB ($145.00)UTG ($103.70)MP ($100.00)Button ($97.40)Hero ($106.05) Preflop: Hero is SB with Q , J . MP posts a blind of $1.50. Hero posts a blind of $0.50. 1 fold, MP (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero (poster) completes, BB raises to $2.5, MP calls $2, Hero calls $2.Flop: ($9.50) J , 3 , 9 (3 players)Hero checks, BB bets $1, MP raises to $2, Hero raises to $9, BB calls $8, MP folds.Turn: ($29.50) T (2 players)Hero bets $15, BB raises to $30, Hero calls $15.River: ($89.50) 8 (2 players)Hero checks, BB bets $55, Hero calls $55.Final Pot: $199.50Ok, 2 main questions I have. 1) Should I raise more on the flop or is it good? 2) What are good lines on the turn? Should I bet less($10), more, and should I(or can I) fold to a min raise?(or is it an auto-call). My read is that it is extreme strength here. Probably str8, but in the back of my mind there was a thought that he min bet the flop with a flopped set. Is this possible on such a board?(that he would min raise on turn?)River I think is a clear fold, As I feel it could only be a split or I am beat. Like I said I made a bit of a pressure call. It is not worth hoping for a split, right?(or hoping he is a donk who still likes his trips?)Thanks.

[HurricaneKyle 0]

How in the world is the river a clear fold? If anything, this is a slam dunk call. Do you honestly think its humanly possible this guy calls 8 more on the flop, and check raises the turn with KQ? If anything, its a profitable call. Sure you'll split some and maybe on a bad day lose the whole thing, but you will also scoop more often than not.

[tapeworm 0]

How in the world is the river a clear fold? If anything, this is a slam dunk call. Do you honestly think its humanly possible this guy calls 8 more on the flop, and check raises the turn with KQ? If anything, its a profitable call. Sure you'll split some and maybe on a bad day lose the whole thing, but you will also scoop more often than not.

He didn't check raise and rather just min-raised, but ok, i might see whaat your saying. My read is that he has a made hand with the min raise(i know it could mean lots of things, but that was my read). Given that, what are villains, range of hands?

[Smasharoo 0]

Do you honestly think its humanly possible this guy calls 8 more on the flop, and check raises the turn with KQ? Yes?I would, allthough I probably just shove the turn.good luck.

[crankin 0]

Do you honestly think its humanly possible this guy calls 8 more on the flop, and check raises the turn with KQ? Yes?I would, allthough I probably just shove the turn.good luck.

What's the thought process here, smash? From a purely mathematical point of view, I don't understand it.He's got to call $8 into a $21.50 pot, which gives him 2.7:1 odds. If he assumes MP comes along for the ride (and *doesn't* re-raise), then he's getting 3.6:1 odds. At best, he seems to have 10 outs (3 Kings, 3 Queens, and 4 Tens), which puts him at 4.7:1 against improving (on the turn). Are the implied odds really there for this call? I could maybe see it if he assumes MP won't fold and will just call, but otherwise I don't see how he could call this.I'm sure I'm overlooking something, but I'm not sure what it is. Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

[Scott3705 0]

What's the thought process here, smash? From a purely mathematical point of view, I don't understand it.He's got to call $8 into a $21.50 pot, which gives him 2.7:1 odds. If he assumes MP comes along for the ride (and *doesn't* re-raise), then he's getting 3.6:1 odds. At best, he seems to have 10 outs (3 Kings, 3 Queens, and 4 Tens), which puts him at 4.7:1 against improving (on the turn). Are the implied odds really there for this call? I could maybe see it if he assumes MP won't fold and will just call, but otherwise I don't see how he could call this.I'm sure I'm overlooking something, but I'm not sure what it is. Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

Look how big the pot got. That answers your question. I would have peeled the turn w/ KQ here, although I wouldn't have raised out of the BB w/ it.

[Peak01 0]

I'm checking the turn and folding when he bets me out of my draw. Since you bet the turn fold to his raise.

[nomad_monad 0]

I'm sure I'm overlooking something, but I'm not sure what it is. Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

Consider from villain's point of view: Hero check-raises 2 opponents and likes his hand a lot. Assuming only str8 outs, seeing the turn is close to 3-1. If villain hits the str8, his implied odds are probably better than normal given that hero likes his hand so much. Each player has invested only $10 so far, and each are sitting behind with stacks in excess of $90. Without doing the actual math, it seems like there's a decent chance that the villain will win enough extra $ to make up for the less than direct flop odds. Plus, villain gets to act in position throughout the hand. A weak lead and then call of a big raise is often scary against a player OOP, so there is also the chance that villain gets a free look at the river if turn bricks.

[Scott3705 0]

Consider from villain's point of view: Hero check-raises 2 opponents and likes his hand a lot. Assuming only str8 outs, seeing the turn is close to 3-1. If villain hits the str8, his implied odds are probably better than normal given that hero likes his hand so much. Each player has invested only $10 so far, and each are sitting behind with stacks in excess of $90. Without doing the actual math, it seems like there's a decent chance that the villain will win enough extra $ to make up for the less than direct flop odds. Plus, villain gets to act in position throughout the hand. A weak lead and then call of a big raise is often scary against a player OOP, so there is also the chance that villain gets a free look at the river if turn bricks.

Easier way to look at it 8*11= $88199.5-93=$106.5106.5-88= 18.5 cream

[reynaldo124 0]

You cant fold. I'd say he has QQ or TT. Although Im confused as to what the BB is... its says $0.50 BB but then someone posted $1.50, and you completed?As for after the flop, it seems likea. he's trying really hard to represent KQ, which I wouldn't give him credit for.b. he caught a 3rd ten on the turn, called the flop because hes a bad player.but then he could have KQ, and is a terrible player. bottom line, you cant fold here .

[DrZebra 0]

Ok, I would like some input on this hand. I made a good read on the river, typed his hand into the chat, and made a loose call. (As I side note I really am starting to need a time bank if anyone knows a site that has one for cash games as I am making terrible decisions under pressure last two days). Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)BB ($145.00)UTG ($103.70)MP ($100.00)Button ($97.40)Hero ($106.05) Preflop: Hero is SB with Q , J . MP posts a blind of $1.50. Hero posts a blind of $0.50. 1 fold, MP (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero (poster) completes, BB raises to $2.5, MP calls $2, Hero calls $2.Flop: ($9.50) J , 3 , 9 (3 players)Hero checks, BB bets $1, MP raises to $2, Hero raises to $9, BB calls $8, MP folds.Turn: ($29.50) T (2 players)Hero bets $15, BB raises to $30, Hero calls $15.River: ($89.50) 8 (2 players)Hero checks, BB bets $55, Hero calls $55.Final Pot: $199.50Ok, 2 main questions I have. 1) Should I raise more on the flop or is it good? 2) What are good lines on the turn? Should I bet less($10), more, and should I(or can I) fold to a min raise?(or is it an auto-call). My read is that it is extreme strength here. Probably str8, but in the back of my mind there was a thought that he min bet the flop with a flopped set. Is this possible on such a board?(that he would min raise on turn?)River I think is a clear fold, As I feel it could only be a split or I am beat. Like I said I made a bit of a pressure call. It is not worth hoping for a split, right?(or hoping he is a donk who still likes his trips?)Thanks.

Almost too many bad plays to enumerate.Flop play...umm what?Lead out.Turn play...Lead bigger unless you were raised on the flop which you wouldve flat called.River play...You just got lucky. Call.

[tapeworm 0]

Wow...sudden interest in this thread. Lots of conflicting ideas, some I agree with and some I don't, so I thought I would add more of my thoughts.Peak---you're suggesting check-fold turn? Jeez...that seems like the worst option. I guess you just know you're behind? I am curious what hand you put villain on.Crankin - KQ is not out of the question as other people said. $8 is not really that much to call. I think this is where I made a BIG mistake as I got tricked by the small flop bet and thought I was making a big raise. I wasn't really counting the $10 already in the pot so I think C/R to $15 to $18 would be good, and define my hand better. My read was that my hand was good. Either way, I wanted to find out.DrZebra - you suggested a completely different way to play it so it is hard to say what would of happened. I think leading out is good play too and would certainly do that half the time, but I don't see why you think C/R is bad? I figured PF raiser to C.Bet. When he bet the minimum and the other guy min raised I was pretty sure my hand was good(based on my read). Had he bet big and the other guy raised then I could a considered folding. I kinda feel that if I lead out and am smooth called, I have not defined his hand well enough, but I could see it both ways. I definitely should of C/R more to better define my hand as being strong, so that I would have a better idea of where I was at. Really, I want to take the pot down here, being OOP.Turn - As it was I was not sure where I was on the turn(because of the weak C/R and his smooth call), but I felt I possibly had a draw if he flopped a set or had AJ or I might still be good. My turn bet is in fact a bit weak because of this sudden lack of confidence as you pointed out, Zebra. I think I was somewhere between wanting a cheapish draw and getting junk to fold, as he could a just been stubborn with AK on the flop. I think you are right that I should bet more(maybe $20?). When he min raised....my first thought was KQ, my second thought was possible set, but I now feel set is unlikely. It could be a feeler raise, making the river push a bluffFunny on the River. Some people say easy call or I outdrew him. I still think it is an easy fold, unless I put him on a complete bluff, and even felt that while I was in the hand. People who say call, what do you put him on? Hurricane said QQ or TT. Lets say we put him on QQ, TT, or KQ. I want to looks at this closer.QQ - First of all its just a split if I'm right. Second, I think he would reraise flop as he will be scared of lots of turns. Third, I don't see why he would min-raise the turn. Seems unlikely and to just split..I say no.TT - Ok....this is very possible, and I would like some real input on the possibiliteis of this. Would he just min raise the turn with a set? I am not sure. I am thinking no because he should be afraid of the str8 draw. I would expect a guy to just push here. Any thoughts on this? KQ - Og this is possible too, mainly because I didn't raise enough on the turn. If we eliminate the above two options then really this is the only optino that should be played like this.....except....bluff - Ok..he could be trying to bluff. He could a sensed weaknesson the turn. The thing is by my check-raise I showed strength and I think he would be uncertain if I could fold my 'mosnter.' With so many donks at thi level, I think most people are not really too tricky. Nevertheless, it is possible he min raised as a feeler/feign of strength and pushed river to take it down.Anyways....tahat became a really long post, sorry. My conclusion is that the root of the problem laid in my weak C/R. I say fold the river, but I am really curious if people think that a set(like TT) is possible, as this was the only thought that made me think I oculd possibly call. When I look back, I feel a set would not min raise turn though.. Also, a set is essentially teh same as a bluff since a good player would be worried about the str8 and check behind, hoping his hand was still good.ok....enpough said....jeez...Anyways, I am pretty much done thinking about this hand as I feel I have identified all of my mistakes, but thanks for all the input...it really helped me think it through.

[greatwhite 0]

River I think is a clear fold, As I feel it could only be a split or I am beat. Like I said I made a bit of a pressure call. It is not worth hoping for a split, right?(or hoping he is a donk who still likes his trips?)Thanks.

This statement makes me want to play heads up with you.

[Peak01 0]

Peak---you're suggesting check-fold turn? Jeez...that seems like the worst option. I guess you just know you're behind? I am curious what hand you put villain on.

I figure he has a made hand already. If I bet and he raises I lost my odds to draw. If I check and he does not bet enough to get me out with my draw then I will call but if he is a smart player he will price me out. I don't think you have implied odds here either if you hit your hand.

[crankin 0]

Easier way to look at it 8*11= $88199.5-93=$106.5106.5-88= 18.5 cream

Ok. At least I see where you are coming from now. So, we figure calling the extra $8 will net us about $1.5 on average. That sounds good. But, the arguments here seem to be using the knowledge that the pot *did* get big. We can't know that when we make the call (e.g, if the Hero only bets $10 on flop and the rest of the bets scale accordingly, we no longer have any cream, and actually have negative expectation). Yes, it certainly looks like Hero really likes his hand, but us calling him could slow him down. That might be good as we could get a free look at the river if we don't spike our ten on the turn, but it also means we wouldn't get as much money in the pot. And, are we completely ruling out that Hero has a set? Granted, Jacks are not possible as they'd raise pre-flop. Nines seem marginally possible. But, Threes seem possible (not real likely, but possible). Sure, we're not going to give him credit for a set most of the time. But, if the river pairs the board, how happy can we be? And finally, if we are willing to credit Hero as being a real smart player (at least smarter than me, <grin>), might he not be able to deduce that we could likely have KQ, and thus, shut down on the turn/river, which would decidedly lower our EV.Edit: Forgot to mention that we also have MP behind us. If they come back over the top of Hero, we don't even get to see the turn. From futher action, we know MP folded, but we obviously don't know that when we make the call. Granted, we'd rather they call than fold/raise as it increases our EV.I've defintely got a lot more to learn about the game (and I may have a big hole around this particular area), but I'm still concerned that we are projecting +EV on a situation based on what happened *after* the decision.

[krup24 0]

Wow Wow Wow that statement is unbelievable thats all I can say.But as for the hand, I tend to agree w/ Dr Zebra on this one.Preflop is a little looseLead the flop, I mean your going for a C/R w/ a pair of jacks/queen kicker????Turn, same as ZebraRiver , honestly man thats a no brainer call

[Scott3705 0]

Ok. At least I see where you are coming from now. So, we figure calling the extra $8 will net us about $18.5 on average. That sounds good. But, the arguments here seem to be using the knowledge that the pot *did* get big. We can't know that when we make the call (e.g, if the Hero only bets $10 on flop and the rest of the bets scale accordingly, we no longer have any cream, and actually have negative expectation). Yes, it certainly looks like Hero really likes his hand, but us calling him could slow him down. That might be good as we could get a free look at the river if we don't spike our ten on the turn, but it also means we wouldn't get as much money in the pot. And, are we completely ruling out that Hero has a set? Granted, Jacks are not possible as they'd raise pre-flop. Nines seem marginally possible. But, Threes seem possible (not real likely, but possible). Sure, we're not going to give him credit for a set most of the time. But, if the river pairs the board, how happy can we be? And finally, if we are willing to credit Hero as being a real smart player (at least smarter than me, <grin>), might he not be able to deduce that we could likely have KQ, and thus, shut down on the turn/river, which would decidedly lower our EV.I've defintely got a lot more to learn about the game (and I may have a big hole around this particular area), but I'm still concerned that we are projecting +EV on a situation based on what happened *after* the decision.

FYPI understand where you're coming from that I projected it out given what actually happened, but I think we can assume we stack the hero here pretty often here w/ him re-raising this flop and therefore, I know the action anyway. (My thoughts on the turn would have actually put this higher EV because I would have played it as if it would stack him). I never expect hero to slow down here in these types of situations because my money card doesn't look like a money card. Kyle originally said it is humanly impossible that would call w/ kq here, which is what I think makes peeling cheap turns on nut gut draws pretty profitable here. I think you have to find a fairly weak/tight player or an redonkulous over aggressive maniac to not get paid off here. At the river, I have no idea how this can't be a call for the hero tho.

[crankin 0]

FYPI understand where you're coming from that I projected it out given what actually happened, but I think we can assume we stack the hero here pretty often here w/ him re-raising this flop and therefore, I know the action anyway. (My thoughts on the turn would have actually put this higher EV because I would have played it as if it would stack him). I never expect hero to slow down here in these types of situations because my money card doesn't look like a money card. Kyle originally said it is humanly impossible that would call w/ kq here, which is what I think makes peeling cheap turns on nut gut draws pretty profitable here. I think you have to find a fairly weak/tight player or an redonkulous over aggressive maniac to not get paid off here. At the river, I have no idea how this can't be a call for the hero tho.

With regards to the FYP (I said we net an average of $1.5 and you FYP to $18.5), is my math off? We play this hand 12 times. Over the course of 11 of them we lose $88. The 12th time we hit the jackpot and clear $106.5. So, over the course of 12 hands, we clear $18.5. Which gives us an average of about $1.5 per hand.I hadn't responded to the original post, but I agree with you, I think this is a call for the Hero.P.S. How can I get the forum software to quote your *entire* post (including your quote of my post)?

[Scott3705 0]

With regards to the FYP (I said we net an average of $1.5 and you FYP to $18.5), is my math off? We play this hand 12 times. Over the course of 11 of them we lose $88. The 12th time we hit the jackpot and clear $106.5. So, over the course of 12 hands, we clear $18.5. Which gives us an average of about $1.5 per hand.I hadn't responded to the original post, but I agree with you, I think this is a call for the Hero.P.S. How can I get the forum software to quote your *entire* post (including your quote of my post)?

Totally misread your post.

[petersun 0]

Do you honestly think its humanly possible this guy calls 8 more on the flop, and check raises the turn with KQ?

Even not considering the implied odds, folks at this level would make this play. Look at the post. One guy bet $1 into a $9.50 pot and the other guy just raised to $2!! None of those bets make any sense. So donks will call a pot sized raise with a inside straight draw and two overcards without even considering the implied odds.So OP decided that he had enough of that silly nonsense and put in a real raise. Against one donk who bets out $1 as a blocking bet, that might work. Against two donks, one donk ends up calling thinking he's got a good enough hand for 2.2 to 1. That donk might call with almost anything that he thinks he can crack a hand like AJ (which is what the donk thinks the OP is representing)with protection against other straight draws. That's exactly what KQ is. Two overcards, with the nut straight potential. Now I still think that the BB has a range of hands beyond KQ that would make sense for this situation.Because of the range, it's a call by the Hero on the river.

[tapeworm 0]

River I think is a clear fold, As I feel it could only be a split or I am beat. Like I said I made a bit of a pressure call. It is not worth hoping for a split, right?(or hoping he is a donk who still likes his trips?)

OK, can I retract this statement? A lot of people seemed to take offence to this exaggerated statement and some are even challenging me heads up...lol. I called, so I certainly didn't see it as an easy fold. At the same time I do not see it as an easy call, as most people suggest, but that is just me apparently, and I am in the minority.

Even not considering the implied odds, folks at this level would make this play. Look at the post. One guy bet $1 into a $9.50 pot and the other guy just raised to $2!! None of those bets make any sense. So donks will call a pot sized raise with a inside straight draw and two overcards without even considering the implied odds.So OP decided that he had enough of that silly nonsense and put in a real raise. Against one donk who bets out $1 as a blocking bet, that might work. Against two donks, one donk ends up calling thinking he's got a good enough hand for 2.2 to 1. That donk might call with almost anything that he thinks he can crack a hand like AJ (which is what the donk thinks the OP is representing)with protection against other straight draws. That's exactly what KQ is. Two overcards, with the nut straight potential. Now I still think that the BB has a range of hands beyond KQ that would make sense for this situation.Because of the range, it's a call by the Hero on the river.

I think this is the best response to my post and is pretty much inline with how I was thinking thorughout the hand. I didn't go into the hand thinking, "check-raise my monster TP Q kicker." So I don't totally understand why some people think the C/R is terrible. Leading out is a solid play as it might give you more information on your hand, but it also gets you unnecessarily involved when you don't have much of a hand(and before you have information on your opponents hand).Hard to discuss events taht dind't happen though, so at any rate, I just checked to see what happened, and from the donkish action it looked like I had to have the best hand. I read the min bet as a sort of "I have nothing" blocking bet, and the min raise as a "I think you have nothing, but let me see by putting in a min raise with my nothing." Maybe I just play with a lot of these donks, as I read these two guys perfectly. V1 had overcards, and V2 folded.Petersun, I think you are right that my opponents are not thinking about implied odds. At the same time I think by putting in a bigger raise I would atleast cut off those odds to make them make a bigger mistake.Finally, I still have not understood what range all you "easy call" guys put him on. The more I think of it, any made hand that he minraises with(two pair/set) would check the river. He probably puts me on AJ like you said, and would like to see if his mosnter is still good now that an easy str8 is out. Only a pure donk would push a set here(which might be what you are saying petersun, that he is a donk?). But...I keep my same conclusion. He has...Str8 to a K, Str8 to a Q, or is on a bluff(lets pretend AKs). Now it is easy to know wether to call/fold. Just think how often you think he is bluffing, since it is the only case you do better than a split. You can't make a judgement on this in a complete vacuum(need a read), so its either a call or a fold, but not easy in either way.Based on my read it should of been a fold(as I was pretty sure he had a made hand on the turn), but I could see someone looking at this hand and thinking that he is bluffing and that folding a str8 is weak play.Finally, to anyone who wants to challenge me, jsut come to ParadisePoker. I play there everyday. Actually, don't. I don't want a sudden influx of quality players. Please go to FullTiltPoker or UltimateBet where you can make educated decisions based on assuming your opponents are edumacatedok...let this be my last reply on this post...please...lol

[petersun 0]

OK, can I retract this statement? A lot of people seemed to take offence to this exaggerated statement and some are even challenging me heads up...lol. I called, so I certainly didn't see it as an easy fold. At the same time I do not see it as an easy call, as most people suggest, but that is just me apparently, and I am in the minority.I think this is the best response to my post and is pretty much inline with how I was thinking thorughout the hand. I didn't go into the hand thinking, "check-raise my monster TP Q kicker." So I don't totally understand why some people think the C/R is terrible. Leading out is a solid play as it might give you more information on your hand, but it also gets you unnecessarily involved when you don't have much of a hand(and before you have information on your opponents hand).Hard to discuss events taht dind't happen though, so at any rate, I just checked to see what happened, and from the donkish action it looked like I had to have the best hand. I read the min bet as a sort of "I have nothing" blocking bet, and the min raise as a "I think you have nothing, but let me see by putting in a min raise with my nothing." Maybe I just play with a lot of these donks, as I read these two guys perfectly. V1 had overcards, and V2 folded.Petersun, I think you are right that my opponents are not thinking about implied odds. At the same time I think by putting in a bigger raise I would atleast cut off those odds to make them make a bigger mistake.Finally, I still have not understood what range all you "easy call" guys put him on. The more I think of it, any made hand that he minraises with(two pair/set) would check the river. He probably puts me on AJ like you said, and would like to see if his mosnter is still good now that an easy str8 is out. Only a pure donk would push a set here(which might be what you are saying petersun, that he is a donk?). But...I keep my same conclusion. He has...Str8 to a K, Str8 to a Q, or is on a bluff(lets pretend AKs). Now it is easy to know wether to call/fold. Just think how often you think he is bluffing, since it is the only case you do better than a split. You can't make a judgement on this in a complete vacuum(need a read), so its either a call or a fold, but not easy in either way.Based on my read it should of been a fold(as I was pretty sure he had a made hand on the turn), but I could see someone looking at this hand and thinking that he is bluffing and that folding a str8 is weak play.Finally, to anyone who wants to challenge me, jsut come to ParadisePoker. I play there everyday. Actually, don't. I don't want a sudden influx of quality players. Please go to FullTiltPoker or UltimateBet where you can make educated decisions based on assuming your opponents are edumacatedok...let this be my last reply on this post...please...lol

Well, without being at the table and having played with this guy, I can't tell if he's a donk. I am assuming so since V1 and V2 was doing this blocking bet/min-raise nonsense. So I think V1 and V2 are both donks.I am making my recommendation of call on river because this is one of those times where your 2nd nut straight loses to the nut straight. And I've already concluded that he is a big enough donk that he could make this type of bad play with a range of holdings more than just KQ. Your reply tells me I've played too many hands at these levels with donks =)I won't ask a question so you don't have to reply =)