An Old Hand Revisited

[aim786 0]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is BB with J, 2. 8 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.Flop: (2 SB) 8, K, J(2 players)SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.Turn: (2 BB) 8(2 players)SB checks, Hero checks.River: (2 BB) 3(2 players)SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero folds.Final Pot: 5 BBThis is a hand I played a few months ago, w/o some of the knowledge and experience I have now. A well known poster on this forum was at the table and said I should have b/f the turn, and I took his word for it. Thinking on my own now, I think a check on the turn was a good move.The SB was a tricky player, so I checked behind on the turn because I was "scared" of being raised. Although there was no logic behind my check then, I now believe that checking behind on the turn was a good move for the following reasons:- My hand has showdown value- My opponent is tricky, and can easily push me off the best hand with a c/r on the turn- He may bluff the river because he thinks I'm weakSo, everything went according to plan, and now he checked the river. I value bet now because I figure he has nothing much, and he raises me! I think my fold here was absolutely horrible. I should have called this bet, because he is very likely raising me with a busted draw or A high far more often than he is with an 8 or K. My turn check showed weakness, so he figures he can take this pot from me with a good bluff raise. Furthermore, even though he is tricky, I think he bets most hands that beat me on the river rather than c/r me.So, what do you guys think?

[Wingmaster05 0]

I agree, if he is tricky, call. Your kicker doesnt matter now either.

[riverbender 0]

- My opponent is tricky, and can easily push me off the best hand with a c/r on the turn

...or the river!A check on the turn woulda been OK (not good..just OK and probably wrong lol) if you had checked the river as well after villian didn't bluff at it. You showed weakness yet he didn't bet at the pot on the river - which I would expect. Betting this river with this pot gets you little imo. If you're ahead he folds. If you're behind you get the c/r.I don't think the lay down is all that horrible - the pot's small. Kinda stupid for villian to bluff c/r this small a pot- unless he can be fairly sure you'll fold. Given you showed weakness on the turn with the check this may be exactly what he's doing. I agree that ordinarily villian will bet most hands that beat you on the river. However, the pot is only 2BB and he may be hoping you take a stab at it so that he can c/r with almost anything given your signaling weakness on the turn. Bet the turn. If he's drawing why give him a free card to beat you?? If you think a c/r means you're beat then you can fold - the pot's small, again, no big loss there. Betting the river indicates you thought you were ahead on the turn (busted draw/A high) so checking the turn would be wrong - unless you wanna slowplay- which you can't here given draws and your 3rd (?) best hand and the too small a pot. You don't want to signal weakness and encourage a bluff unless you have a decent hand and can call a river bluff profitably. I'm not sure you can here.

[aim786 0]

A check on the turn woulda been OK (not good..just OK and probably wrong lol) if you had checked the river as well after villian didn't bluff at it. You showed weakness yet he didn't bet at the pot on the river - which I would expect. Betting this river with this pot gets you little imo. If you're ahead he folds. If you're behind you get the c/r.I think checking both the turn and river is bad, I have to bet the river the way I played it. Given his weird line, this is much more likely to be a bluff than a strong hand, because any K/8/J bets that river. Furthermore, I only have to be right 20% of the time to call that bet, and I'm quite sure I'm ahead more than 20% of the time.I don't think the lay down is all that horrible - the pot's small. Kinda stupid for villian to bluff c/r this small a pot- unless he can be fairly sure you'll fold. Given you showed weakness on the turn with the check this may be exactly what he's doing. Well then he's bluffing isn't he? Therefore, I have to call him.I agree that ordinarily villian will bet most hands that beat you on the river. However, the pot is only 2BB and he may be hoping you take a stab at it so that he can c/r with almost anything given your signaling weakness on the turn. Again, I think he bluff raises me much more than 20% of the time rather than c/r me with a strong hand.Bet the turn. If he's drawing why give him a free card to beat you?? If you think a c/r means you're beat then you can fold - the pot's small, again, no big loss there. Betting the river indicates you thought you were ahead on the turn (busted draw/A high) so checking the turn would be wrong - unless you wanna slowplay- which you can't here given draws and your 3rd (?) best hand and the too small a pot. You don't want to signal weakness and encourage a bluff unless you have a decent hand and can call a river bluff profitably. I'm not sure you can here.Giving a free card in a small pot is rarely a mistake. In fact, in small pots giving a free card is probably +EV in a lot of situations. Given the fact he is tricky, he can raise me with so many hands on the turn here that I'm ahead of: any 2 spades, T9, 97, QT, etc.

[pokerplayer24 0]

I check behind on the river.But then again I bet/fold the turn. He could be peeling with a ton of gutshots and whatnot.What is calling you on the river that you have beat?This because I checked behind on the turn I have to bet the river is crap. Check behind on the river here as played. Your bet has no value.

[aim786 0]

I check behind on the river.But then again I bet/fold the turn. He could be peeling with a ton of gutshots and whatnot.What is calling you on the river that you have beat?This because I checked behind on the turn I have to bet the river is crap. Check behind on the river here as played. Your bet has no value.

He can call me with any A high or a pocket pair. And by the same token, what's he raising me with at the river that doesnt bet the river in the first place?

[pokerplayer24 0]

He can call me with any A high or a pocket pair. And by the same token, what's he raising me with at the river that doesnt bet the river in the first place?

If hes tricky nothing often enough to call the river raise or hes the type that realizes he missed his checkraise on the turn so he will go for one on the river.Also would help to know what kind of player preflop the SB is. Most players that are aggressive preflop will be raising with Ax or pps.Just makes no sense to not bet/fold the turn when you are actually going to get called by draws and whatnot and then you decide to bet/fold the river when these hands are no longer calling.

[Briguy 0]

At first I didn't like your river bet, but now I don't mind it so much. It would be pretty unusual for him to go for a check-raise with a K or an 8 after you checked the turn. Unless he's thinking beyond 2nd level, and thinks that you think beyond second level, he either has a draw or another J, and you split with any J except AJ or J8. If a bet makes him fold a split pot, that's good for you. I think you should call the raise, because K or 8 normally lead this river after you checked the turn. You are only getting 5-1, but I don't think you are beat 20% of the time here, the way the pot was played.Bet/fold the turn, though. You'll often have the best hand head's up with 2nd pair, and you want to get value from Ax while those hands are still drawing. You are not making a big error folding the best hand in a 5 BB pot if he does raise you on a bluff.

[Actuary 3]

over in the SH forum, they like to check behind lots of turns in small pots with tricky opponents.More "advanced" players who think beyond SSHE.???not sure.I'm the well known Aim references who wanted a turn b/f.

[antistuff 0]

I like your check on the turn. I'm not sure about betting the river. But I just realized something. If I hold that 8, and you are a good aggressive opponent who will bet that river with a wide range of hands, I think a checkraise is better than a bet. I will take your turn check to mean that you hold either have air or have a eh hand and are trying to induce a bluff on the river. If i bet and you have air you are going to fold anyway, but if you have and eh hand and i check the river you are going to bet it.I think in his posistion checking that flop to you with a hand like 89 is something I need to learn to do sometimes. As of right now I would bet it every time.

[Briguy 0]

If villain had a K or an 8, he took the line which won him the absolute minimum postflop. Don't mimic that line. Even if the river check-raise had been called, he would have collected a maximum of 2.5 BB postflop. Just betting each street will win the same amount in many blind battles, and villain will win more if hero has hit the flop and decides to raise any street.