I Moved Up In Limits

[bobbywithani 0]

Suprisingly the 1-2 tables at Golden Palace are ten times softer than the .50-1.0 tables, I mean people calling raises with 10 8 off etc. Anyway I figured I'd get you to play this hand with me.Hero is MP with A [Diamond] K [Club]Utg calls, 2 folds, Hero Raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG callsFlop: 8 [spade] 10 [spade] J [Diamond]UTG bets, Hero?

[Zach6668 513]

I raise.

[bobbywithani 0]

Hero is MP with A [Diamond] K [Club]Utg calls, 2 folds, Hero Raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG callsFlop: 8 [spade] 10 [spade] J [Diamond]UTG bets, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, UTG callsTurn: Q [spade]no question on my play hereUTG checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls, UTG calls,River: Q [Diamond]UTG checks, Hero?I hate putting myself in a bet/fold situation with a straight so should I just check in an attempt to induce a bluff? This board ends up being very coordinated on the end.

[Zach6668 513]

I really wanted to fold some of the players behind me by raising that flop, cleaning up some outs. Either way, we hit our money card, IMO. I think a flush raises that turn, and a set either 3-bets the flop, or raises that turn.I'm bet/calling the river.- Zach

[screech 0]

I would have just called the flop. Few reasons:a) You have no fold equityB) you're not cleaning up any outsc) you welcome callersd) free card is unlikely (you're not in lp)River is an easy bet/call.

[Actuary 3]

Screech,is cleaning up re-draws overrated?because I see bdfd's I want to clean up and Q's, and probably other stuff that could beat me.I like a raise here but I"m afraid I spew.In reality, I call a lot here..unsure of my reason.If it was just a gut shot, I like a smooth call. But we have weak outs to protect as well in a big pot.I'm conflicted.

[screech 0]

Screech,is cleaning up re-draws overrated?because I see bdfd's I want to clean up and Q's, and probably other stuff that could beat me.I like a raise here but I"m afraid I spew.In reality, I call a lot here..unsure of my reason.If it was just a gut shot, I like a smooth call. But we have weak outs to protect as well in a big pot.I'm conflicted.

I don't think cleaning up those redraws is worth it, when that is the only reason for a raise. Plus, there's a chance UTG has a bd flush draw or a queen, or one of our opponents has a flush draw.Also, if one of them has a Q, they probably have a card between J-8 to go with it. And even if they don't, they may be loose enough to cold/call anyway.It's not like a raise here cleans up our 3 king outs, or the bd flush draws completely. It doesn't. A raise might increase our equity from around 25% to 30%. It's not really worth it, especially wehn you consider that keeping the other players around will add to our implied odds should we hit a gutshot.

[devilsslide 0]

Raising is the standard SSHE play isn't it? Is there any reason not to do this?***replies****Interesting line Screech, I need to think about it. I'm wondering why you said we have no fold equity on the flop even though we raised pf. Is it because the board is so coordinated?

[Zach6668 513]

See, I don't know how much I agree with this.I think we fold one or both of the Co and the button enough for this. I think this folds 8x, Tx type hands that don't have straight draws, and often, we'll fold gutshot draws as well. Having said that, and given the passive nature of most players at 1/2, we are buying a free card quite often, even when we don't end up buying the button. I really don't think CO or button will bet the turn if it's checked to him on a blank all that often, given our PF and flop action.I could be way off here, but that's just my thinking.- Zach

[screech 0]

Raising is the standard SSHE play isn't it? Is there any reason not to do this?***replies****Interesting line Screech, I need to think about it. I'm wondering why you said we have no fold equity on the flop even though we raised pf. Is it because the board is so coordinated?

It's mainly because the board is so coordinated.

See, I don't know how much I agree with this.I think we fold one or both of the Co and the button enough for this. I think this folds 8x, Tx type hands that don't have straight draws, and often, we'll fold gutshot draws as well. Having said that, and given the passive nature of most players at 1/2, we are buying a free card quite often, even when we don't end up buying the button. I really don't think CO or button will bet the turn if it's checked to him on a blank all that often, given our PF and flop action.I could be way off here, but that's just my thinking.- Zach

I don't think you are way off at all. If you think it will buy a free card, then by all means raise right now. Just make sure you take the free card and probably fold the river UI. But remember, you do open yourself up to get 3-bet or donked on the turn, which will ruin your play. Also, if these guys are loose/passive enoguh to give you a free card, then thye will probably not fold to your raise.One part of your argument I don't think has much merit is that we fold 8x and Tx hands. If these guys are loose enough to cold-call with these hands, and they don't contain a straight draw (most of the cold-calling ones will), I have a hard time beleiving they are not going to call 2 cold on the flop when they hit a pair.Another thing is that driving out these hands, (82 for example), is not a huge benefit to you, mainly because you are behind to UTG like 95% of the time anyway, and there's a decent chance you are reverse dominated by him. In this case, you want the other players sticking around to pad the pot for you. Folding a hand like A8 or K8 might be of some value, same wiht any Qx hand. But the problem, as I noted earlier, is that most Qx cold-calling hands will contain a pair, and all the other A8/K8/Qx hands that you have dominated aren't folding the flop if they are loose enough to call with these pf to begin with.

[mrdannyg 274]

Suprisingly the 1-2 tables at Golden Palace are ten times softer than the .50-1.0 tables, I mean people calling raises with 10 8 off etc. Anyway I figured I'd get you to play this hand with me.Hero is MP with A [Diamond] K [Club]Utg calls, 2 folds, Hero Raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG callsFlop: 8 [spade] 10 [spade] J [Diamond]UTG bets, Hero?

good to hear those tables are still crazy. i played 1/2 there for awhile and it was bar none the craziest game i've ever played at.at golden palace 1/2 - raise there every time.at other sites - see other analysis.

[Zach6668 513]

One part of your argument I don't think has much merit is that we fold 8x and Tx hands. If these guys are loose enough to cold-call with these hands, and they don't contain a straight draw (most of the cold-calling ones will), I have a hard time beleiving they are not going to call 2 cold on the flop when they hit a pair.Another thing is that driving out these hands, (82 for example), is not a huge benefit to you, mainly because you are behind to UTG like 95% of the time anyway, and there's a decent chance you are reverse dominated. Folding a hand like A8 or K8 might be of some value, same wiht any Qx hand. But the problem, as I noted earlier, is that most Qx cold-calling hands will contain a pair, and all the other A8/K8/Qx hands that you have dominated aren't folding the flop if they are loose enough to call with these pf to begin with.

Yeah, you're right on this. I think I was trying to force a reason out of nothing.How about this: Since these players are loose, and they most likely connected with the flop, thus will most likely call a raise, how many outs do we need for this raise to be a pure equity raise?We can assume 4 outs to the nuts, plus some discounted amount for our over cards, right?For it to be an equity raise, we need to have >25% equity assuming we keep it 4 way. So that would mean roughly 6 outs? I'm just doing quick math in my head, so let me know if my numbers are off.- Zach

[screech 0]

Yeah, you're right on this. I think I was trying to force a reason out of nothing.How about this: Since these players are loose, and they most likely connected with the flop, thus will most likely call a raise, how many outs do we need for this raise to be a pure equity raise?We can assume 4 outs to the nuts, plus some discounted amount for our over cards, right?For it to be an equity raise, we need to have >25% equity assuming we keep it 4 way. So that would mean roughly 6 outs? I'm just doing quick math in my head, so let me know if my numbers are off.- Zach

Yeah, 6 outs seems about right. But that is only if all the players behind you call. Maybe 1 folds on occassion. Then you need 9 outs.So yeah, even if you raise, you are not giving up that much equity wise. I would guess that you ahve about 6 outs on average here. One thing that I always forget to take into account is pot equity with anything less than 8 outs.

[Zach6668 513]

Yeah, that's just me brainstorming, hoping both players will come along.I rarely even consider pot equity on the flop without at least an OESD, or double gutter. But, if we are playing at some ridiculously loose games, as in many B and M low limit games, I think we should be thinking about it more when we have a gutshot and overs, like in this example. These situations could routinely come up when we're getting 6-7 people to the flop.Good discussion Too bad I should be doing my paper....- Zach

[screech 0]

Yeah, that's just me brainstorming, hoping both players will come along.I rarely even consider pot equity on the flop without at least an OESD, or double gutter. But, if we are playing at some ridiculously loose games, as in many B and M low limit games, I think we should be thinking about it more when we have a gutshot and overs, like in this example. These situations could routinely come up when we're getting 6-7 people to the flop.Good discussion Too bad I should be doing my paper....- Zach

Yeah.I think I'll go play some pokerstars 0.05/0.1 so I can raise a gutshot for value.

[Actuary 3]

I'm back..eating Baja Fresh now...don't raise..Overs aren't fans of coordinated boards.draw cheaply.yeah..the pots big...meh...