playing against maniacs

[Tiburon41 0]

Looking for some general advice. I'm a tight aggressive player, and I started playing 1/2 Limit a few weeks ago on Stars. I've done fairly well until recently, when a combination of bad cards and bad beats have cost me quite a bit in the last 3 days (40% of bankroll).My question is this: How does the TAA player play against the maniac when the maniac just keeps getting lucky?A hand from the losing streak:POKERSTARS GAME #1292898521: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2005/03/02 - 11:54:33 (ET)Table 'Sorga' Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 2: Dromen ($14.50 in chips) Seat 3: martinbh ($8 in chips) Seat 4: cool713 ($41.25 in chips) Seat 5: foldie2005 ($31 in chips) Seat 6: Lexxi 44 ($43.50 in chips) Seat 7: Vahrus ($20 in chips) Seat 8: Tiburon41 ($15 in chips) Seat 9: Pete_thePuma ($18.50 in chips) Seat 10: Aahz ($67.75 in chips) Pete_thePuma: posts small blind $0.50Aahz: posts big blind $1Vahrus: posts big blind $1*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Tiburon41 [Ah Tc]Dromen: folds martinbh: folds martinbh leaves the tablecool713: calls $1foldie2005: calls $1Lexxi 44: calls $1Vahrus: checks Tiburon41: calls $1Pete_thePuma: calls $0.50Aahz: checks *** FLOP *** [Ts Ac 8s]meathead joins the table at seat #3 Pete_thePuma: checks Aahz: checks cool713: checks foldie2005: checks Lexxi 44: checks Vahrus: checks Tiburon41: bets $1Pete_thePuma: calls $1Aahz: folds cool713: calls $1foldie2005: calls $1Lexxi 44: calls $1Vahrus: calls $1*** TURN *** [Ts Ac 8s] [5d]Pete_thePuma: checks cool713: checks foldie2005: checks Lexxi 44: checks Vahrus: checks Tiburon41: bets $2Pete_thePuma: folds cool713: calls $2foldie2005: folds Lexxi 44: calls $2Vahrus: calls $2*** RIVER *** [Ts Ac 8s 5d] [4d]DRABAR has returnedcool713: bets $2Lexxi 44: calls $2Vahrus: folds Tiburon41: raises $2 to $4cool713: raises $2 to $6Lexxi 44: calls $4Tiburon41: raises $2 to $8Betting is cappedcool713: calls $2Lexxi 44: calls $2*** SHOW DOWN ***Tiburon41: shows [Ah Tc] (two pair, Aces and Tens)cool713: shows [6h 7h] (a straight, Four to Eight)Lexxi 44: mucks hand cool713 collected $44 from potThis has been representative of the last few nights losses. My stats: VP$IP: 20.88PF Raise: 5.76%Aggression Factor: 2.39How do I stop this crappy trend before I lose the bankroll?

[Guest]

well first of all I know it sux to lose when you have a good hand.But the hand that he played was not a bad hand 67 suited can have alot of outs depending on the flop,altho he flopped a gut shot draw, if he is any kind of player he would assume that u bet with top pair or better.I think it was worth for him to call 1$ to see the turn card it did give him open end st8 draw,THE FISH WILL CALL TO THE RIVER, The mistake I see that you made was after the river hit you capped the bet seeing that there could have been a srt8 possibilaty.next time the fish will miss his draw and you will win it happens nothing you can do about it.you have to keep playing good cards and the $$ will come your way :-) Good luck in the future.....

[Tiburon41 0]

I felt I didn't have a great raising hand in ATo. I wonder if I would have raised, would he have called with suited connectors?The flop gave him nothing. He needed runner-runner to do anything. If I bet out straight from the start, he had to know he needed runner-runner.The reason I capped at the end was because I couldn't (in my own mind) see anyone playing 76s after catching AT BEST and open end straight draw on the turn. He had a 4-outer on the flop, and an 8-outer by the turn.My frustration is with the fact that this continues to happen to me in downswings. When it happens, I lose big.My plan is to keep playing the same way, especially since I know that the TAA player WILL win over time--the TAA player MUST win over time.Yhanks, yahaw, for the advice.

[Guest]

Just watch the board for possible hands that may beat you he did call your every bet and he did bet into you when the river hit, and I dont think raising pre flop would have made him fold, suited connectors are very good starting hands in any limit.. Hope this little advice helps you in the future keep on trucking :wink:

[KDawgCometh 2]

you really should've raised PF. You had position and possible fold equity. Other than that the hand looks fine.

[Emptyeye 0]

If I have the chance, I always raise A10. Though in this case, since he acted before you and called the blind, he probably calls your raise too and nothing really changes.Beyond that, I really wouldn't classify him as a maniac (From what you've shown here), more like a calling station who woke up when he hit something.But yeah, you played it okay, this stuff just happens sometimes. I know you don't want to hear it (I know I never do when it happens to me), but remember that these people will give you far more chips than they take in the long run.

[KDawgCometh 2]

But yeah, you played it okay, this stuff just happens sometimes. I know you don't want to hear it (I know I never do when it happens to me), but remember that these people will give you far more chips than they take in the long run.

I'd like to add that you should write down his screen name and add him to your buddy list

[Awful 0]

How does the TAA player play against the maniac when the maniac just keeps getting lucky?

You can't. I'm sorry, that's the way it is; Maniacs get paid off when they hold hands, and you are correct in doing so. We can't teach people to get lucky, we can't teach them to avoid suckouts, and we shouldn't tell people to get away from decent hands vs. maniacs.All I can say is: know when to move down to rebuild the roll as opposed to toughing out the streak too long and harming your recovery ability, and they will be lining your pockets more than they take from you. Not what you wanna hear, but really, when the LAGgy players are making hands on you, you have to grin and bear it

[Tiburon41 0]

Thanks for the encouragement all. Very much appreciated.

[NYSPOKER 0]

A PF raise probably gets called. But it shows strength and, may convince him to fold his gutshot on the flop, when the A hits.

[Briguy 0]

How do I stop this crappy trend before I lose the bankroll?

First off, he's not a maniac, he's a calling station. If he were a maniac (LAGer), he would've probably raised preflop and then led out the betting on the flop, if not the turn. Calling stations are lovely. Become his friend. He followed a runner-runner at the flop. He had slightly less than marginal odds to call the turn ($15 dollar pot, $2 bet, 6 outs on the OESD sans spades...maybe he had implied odds with the other CS's at the table). Long term, this guy will pay you off. You just have to learn to only call his river bet when he wakes up and leads out. If a calling station wakes up, they've probably caught something.

[badgerbucco 0]

It's not the worst play I've seen. I think he made the wrong move to call because there was a 4-flush possibility out there, taking his solid outs from 4 to 3. There was $8 in the pot when he called, so he was getting 8-1 to call. His gutshot was a 14.3-1 shot. He doesn't have the odds. However, if he hits his hand, he'll be paid off handsomely, because it's not obvious, so he has decent implied odds. If he feels the people behind him will just call, then that makes the play better, because the pot odds rise from 8-1 up to a possible 11-1, which was what happened. However, with the A, it's possible that a raise could come behind him and then you might reraise, so he could be facing 2 more bets. It's not a situation I'd put myself in, but I have no sense of the table dynamic. My basic point is that his play wasn't optimal, but it was far from the crappy play you make it out to be.Sure, it sucks to have this happen when you've hit a flop this hard, but without people making suboptimal plays like this, you won't make much money.

[Briguy 0]

Whoops! I missed the gutshot. Still pretty bad odds, considering that only 3 of the gutshot cards are clean and the fact that it's a baby straight gutshot.Edited to add: The player in question is still a CS, though.

[Tiburon41 0]

I suppose it's more a difference in styles. I don't really consider the low suited connectors to be a +EV play in my mind. I mean, here's a guy who had a inside straight draw (which I actually missed when I first reviewed the hand), and he just calls down to the river when he gets the low straight. I've laid down low straights with the right read (and been right in doing so). T9s, I can see. Maybe even 98s in an unraised pot. Anything lower just can't be +EV. It's just my own hang up, I suppose. T9s is -EV except in LP98s is -EV any place before seat 787s is -EV except the button76s is -EV except seats 8, 9, and the button65s is just flat -EVand so on...

[tweeds07 0]

Unfortunately, you did not do anything wrong here, you bet when you had the best hand and that's really all you can do...you cannot give him free cards to hit his draws, so you played it best.Unfortunately, he hit one of his 4 outs. It happens and there's really nothing you can do about it. I've found this problem at 5/10 on PokerStars even, morons playing ANY two suited cards preflop. Something you gotta deal with and know that in the end, if you continue to play the same way, the odds are with you and you will make money. :-)P.S. - You definitely want to sit down with this guy again, as long as you have the bankroll stick with it. I was playing with some idiot who was playing all kind of suited cards preflop and so on, sure he had his winnings early and got lucky, but within 200 hands, I had taken him for $100.

[Guest]

*** RIVER *** [Ts Ac 8s 5d] [4d]DRABAR has returnedcool713: bets $2Lexxi 44: calls $2Vahrus: folds Tiburon41: raises $2 to $4cool713: raises $2 to $6Lexxi 44: calls $4Tiburon41: raises $2 to $8Betting is cappedcool713: calls $2Lexxi 44: calls $2*** SHOW DOWN ***Tiburon41: shows [Ah Tc] (two pair, Aces and Tens)cool713: shows [6h 7h] (a straight, Four to Eight)Lexxi 44: mucks hand cool713 collected $44 from pot

i think you should have just called the 1 BB on the end. after the re-raise, i have no idea why you capped it.be careful not to play looser in certain situations just because your opponent sucks.

[21gambit 0]

Yeah, I think capping here was a horrible play, this is how the strategy of being a loose super-agressive player really pays off. Those extra bets they suck out of you when they suck out. Mike Caros suggestion for dealing with a super agressor is never to raise or re-raise them, just call. I dont know about that, if the pot is multi-way and you have two pair than raising is a great idea to get those draws out, and if not, then to make them pay a premium for their draws, the river however is a situation where you usually arent betting people out(usually), so be cautious unless you have a monster on the river, which two pair isnt btw(my definition is a set or better with a favorable flop texture, such as that 3rd flush card didnt come out on the river, or a Q didnt pop out with the 98 showing on the flop.Then again, Im fairly new myself. This is just my opinion of how to play it.21GambitMan I edit my posts too much, I read an interview with Jennifer Harman and they were asking her if she tilts from bad beats. She of course said no, shes a pro, come on, unless shes had a ton repeatedly"When I experience a bad beat, I think of it as overhead. If you own a business, you have to pay your bills, and I consider a bad beat one of my bills. It’s going to happen, and there’s nothing I can do about it."

[PUNNISHER 0]

I saw two clear errors in your play. First in that particular limit, AT off does not play very well. Sometimes in late position it is a good hand to raise and isolate with, but in MP as you were, and limping, well you're opening yourself up for distaster. The guy calling on the gutshots was obviously a bad player, but at these limits, that is what most players do. Also, if you ever get a chance pick up Gary Carson's book on Hold'em. There is a really good section in there on drawing theory. It talks about how often in lower limit, with any types of draws out, that TPTK or even Overpair stands to be in a lot of trouble against 3 or more opponents. The other clear mistake in the capping of the river. The guy was obviously drawing to something by his check/call status until the river. On the river, I probably would have just check/called. That way, if he bet, you can call and save yourself (in this case) 3 bets. When playing limit poker, to get to the next level, you have to understand that winning a bet and saving a bet are of equal importance. Hope this helps.L*