from a huge flop to 9 high on the river.

[jayistheman 0]

** Game ID 608708386 starting - 2005-12-11 15:27:11** Beyond The Sea [Hold 'em] (0.25|0.50 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money- abcstore sitting in seat 1 with $76.60- kurtengs sitting in seat 2 with $17.95- Madoek sitting in seat 3 with $116.22- lase6969 sitting in seat 5 with $45.50- jarc08 sitting in seat 6 with $48.75 [Dealer]- JayAtCollege sitting in seat 7 with $77.99- simmo64 sitting in seat 8 with $16.50- SOAD666 sitting in seat 9 with $10.30- jl2003 sitting in seat 10 with $31.00JayAtCollege posted the small blind - $0.25simmo64 posted the big blind - $0.50** Dealing card to JayAtCollege: 9 of Clubs, 8 of ClubsSOAD666 foldedjl2003 foldedabcstore called - $0.50kurtengs foldedMadoek foldedlase6969 foldedjarc08 foldedJayAtCollege called - $0.50simmo64 checked** Dealing the flop: Jack of Hearts, 3 of Clubs, 10 of ClubsJayAtCollege bet - $1.00simmo64 called - $1.00abcstore folded** Dealing the turn: 6 of DiamondsJayAtCollege bet - $3.00simmo64 called - $3.00** Dealing the river: Ace of HeartsJayAtCollege ????reads:these guys are all generally passive. I have semibluffed a few times to be continuously cold called by tp good kicker. Its kinda hard to tell what they are up to.ok. so i had a big draw, and as usual, I bricked out. the question is, is he drawing too? what do you do here?

[stonecrow 0]

How is this even a question? It's a check and fold to a bet.

[jayistheman 0]

How is this even a question? It's a check and fold to a bet.

i think its a very valid question. the board is draw heavy, all draws miss, and he has just been calling down. why should I give him credit for a hand? I am looking to see what the general consensus is on how often i can make a play here.you, sir, are very weak.

[jayistheman 0]

also, i might add, that checking this river invites him to bluff with any busted draw. all the more reason to give this a little more thought than you have.

[AgroPoker 0]

also, i might add, that checking this river invites him to bluff with any busted draw. all the more reason to give this a little more thought than you have.

I agree, I have been in this same situation on many occasion. (I need to start keeping track) It’s though one. The only way u win is to bet. Very read dependent. If you check, he bluffs you fold. I too would like to see what others have to say. Otherwise I like the way u played it.

[Merby 3]

also, i might add, that checking this river invites him to bluff with any busted draw. all the more reason to give this a little more thought than you have.

The only way you can win this hand is with a bet on the river. What's more, you have set this up to be a believable bet by your play on previous streets. That being said, you have said that you read the table to be a passive table: checking/calling top pair, etc. In this case, I would go with your read and back off: check/fold the river. I have two main reasons for this choice: 1) The villian has showed an interest in the hand and has already committed $4.50 of his original $16.50 stack. If you put him all-in on the river (and I don't recommend much less than this for a bet: must be at least $8, might as well be all $12.50), the pot will be laying him a little better than 2:1 odds. With these odds, and considering his stack size, he will probably call any pair. 2) You have said that the table has been very passive... leaning towards check/calling. If this is the case, there will be much better oppertunities to chip up. What is more, checking down the river lets you show your busted flush draw: these weak opponents will probably see this hand as a perfect example as to why they should keep check/calling their chips to you when they only have second or third pair.Although I prefer the check/fold on the river (because of the 'mood' of the table), I think a bet on the river is a close second, and therefore not a bad play. If you bet the river, I recommend $8 to $12.50.Cheers,Merby

[stonecrow 0]

also, i might add, that checking this river invites him to bluff with any busted draw. all the more reason to give this a little more thought than you have.

There's not much thought required at all for me. If you had anything higher than a 9 high I might consider betting.Like Merby said you're going to be betting 8$~ or more on this river to make a move. That's already comitting 16 BB's at your table on a stone cold bluff.*shrug* I guess it's dependent on style but I'd much rather make wise decision as opposed to being so concerned about taking down this one single hand. There'd be many other opportunities to come to strike.Whats the read on the guy anyway? If he's looking to make max profit like a fool he might even be slow playing a set down on you (retarded w/ the flush draw on the board but...)I'd choose my battle elsewhere

[jayistheman 0]

Whats the read on the guy anyway? If he's looking to make max profit like a fool he might even be slow playing a set down on you (retarded w/ the flush draw on the board but...)the read is really 50/50 on the guy... i mean, the general table texture is passive, but that's how prima 50 NL usually is.I would normally put him on a hand here, but this board is just so draw heavy... i really don't want to just leave my money out there by default.I think there are some image issues to consider as well.it doesn't look too good for me if i bet all the way down, and c/f to a persistent caller. I also wouldn't mind showing down a bluff, really.FPS WARNING:against a player on which I have a strong read, i think check/pushing the river is good as well... there are a few people with whom I have played live that I might do this to.but reads can do funny things to us.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Tough spot.If you check the river, you're going to get checked behind and very likely lose. OR, you get a bet and have to fold.It depends. Do you think this pot is large enough to fire the third cannon?It's very likely he's on a draw, so you could take this down by a nice sized bet.You're only going to get hands who beat you to call.I dunno, I think it's an all or nothing play, to some extent.Bet big or check/fold, but I probably check/fold, this pot's not too big.

[strategy 4]

My biggest leak in NL cash games seems to be trying bluffs in spots like these. I'd just check and fold. It's almost like they would rather pay off $10 to a better hand than think about whether they were bluffed for the rest of the session. Just my opinion.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

My biggest leak in NL cash games seems to be trying bluffs in spots like these.  I'd just check and fold.  It's almost like they would rather pay off $10 to a better hand than think about whether they were bluffed for the rest of the session.  Just my opinion.

I agree. I think if maybe you had picked up a pair on the turn or river you could try and justify it, but I really think check/fold is the best route.

[iggymcfly 0]

Ideally, this is a good situation to utilize game theory.You want to bluff this river sometimes, and check/fold it sometimes to keep your opponents from being able to know what you're doing. I'd usually go with my instincts as to how strong my opponent is when determining whether or not to try a move. However, that may only be applicable at higher limits. I did recently move down to the 1/2 level for a while, and there are a lot of people there that just won't lay down anything. If you're at that kind of table, check/folding is probably your best option. To put it more simply, if you don't think he'll lay down a jack, then don't even bother.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

To put it more simply, if you don't think he'll lay down a jack, then don't even bother.

Heh, couldn't have said it better myself.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I lightly skimmed replies.I check/fold unless I have a REALLY good read on the player.KQ suuuuuure would suck.