a view of god and religion

[BilliardsBoy 0]

The question to me is what does everybody define "religious" as?I know a lot of people who only go to church on Christmas and Easter and call themselves religious.We throw out the word relgious way to much and without a lot of thought.  That's why I think having a "relationship" with God is much more important.

What's funny is that I do the first. I wouldn't consider myself religious.I think it's pretty obvious that I have a "relationship" though.Again, it's the inability of many to distinguish the difference between faith and religion.Some of what you say is right in that many of those people don't really have faith, but again I'd make the point that going to church doesn't mean you have faith.

[LAS22 0]

The question to me is what does everybody define "religious" as?I know a lot of people who only go to church on Christmas and Easter and call themselves religious.We throw out the word relgious way to much and without a lot of thought.  That's why I think having a "relationship" with God is much more important.

What's funny is that I do the first. I wouldn't consider myself religious.I think it's pretty obvious that I have a "relationship" though.Again, it's the inability of many to distinguish the difference between faith and religion.Some of what you say is right in that many of those people don't really have faith, but again I'd make the point that going to church doesn't mean you have faith.

That's a great point. Just like going to an NBA game doesn't make you a pro basketball player. You could go to church every Sunday and never have a relationship with God. Church is just one place I go to worship God, I also do it in the shower, my vehicle, at work, etc. You can worship God anywhere. However, I do think church is a great place to gather with others and worship God.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

So... do you guys believe in angels?Half baked quote!!

[BilliardsBoy 0]

You can worship God anywhere. However, I do think church is a great place to gather with others and worship God

This is the essence of religion. Historically, churches have had problems and can lead to misguiding people through poor or twisted leadership. But the idea of gathering together with people of a common faith to practice and talk about that faith is a good thing.

Church is just one place I go to worship God, I also do it in the shower, my vehicle, at work, etc.

You sick bastard!

[crowTrobot 2]

It's funny but not unexpected to me that Crow would jump into this thread. I'd still say that he is glaringly unable and unwilling to consider the question of "why" when trying to explain the complexities and beauties on the universe.

wrong, i consider the why every day. i'm just realistic about what i truly know, and how feelings of any kind including "faith" feelings are most likely to be simply manifestations of something physical in our bodies.anyway how do you know the question of why (having a purpose) isn't a human concept that the universe doesn't care about? does there necessarily have to be a why if the universe (or multiverse) is eternal in some sense? typical egocentric thinking there - just because we are capable of appreciating the order and symmetry of the universe it must have a purpose and the purpose is it must have been made just for us. i don't see where an ordered universe necessarily implies an (interested in us) creator. on some levels the universe is pretty chaotic and inefficient anyway.

People who simply write off others thoughts and feelings and utterly wrong and pointless don't get my respect. You believe in Budha, God, Jesus, Allah, or no God, that's for you to decide.

DN is specifically espousing the christian faith only (by endorsing the stroble book and the significance of jesus), contradicting the ideas in the quote above, which ignores specifics in the bible, implies no hell, includes concepts more akin to eastern religeons etc. christianity is absolutely about it being the only right faith and only way to save your soul. if you deny that you are throwing away the bible. that was my original point. i have no problem with your type of belief BB, it's pretty normal and on a personal level can make life fulfilling. however even passive "believers" as a whole (maybe not you personally) indirectly lend support to the anti-science agenda of the christian right, which is ultimately detrimental to the long-term survival of the human race. that's what i have a problem with.

[BilliardsBoy 0]

anyway how do you know the question of why (having a purpose) isn't a human concept that the universe doesn't care about?

Why is probably the most important question that we as humans focus on. Why did this war happen, why did he kill her, why do I feel this way, why do I do this, why does the tide change, why why why. I don't think that you address the why, because if you did then you wouldn't be as comfortable in your assumptions as you seem. Do you write everything off that you can't explain to chaos?The entire human existance that you and I cherish is based completely and totally on the pursuit of the why. What, where and who are easy, how is difficult, and why is never ending. You may believe that everything in the universe is chaotic, but not to me and others. Where did matter even come from, how did it start, why is there existence. In my mind ignoring the question of "why" and saying "well, everything is chaotic so I'll just leave it at that" is moving backwards as an inteligent species.

however even passive "believers" as a whole (maybe not you personally) indirectly lend support to the anti-science agenda of the christian right, which is ultimately detrimental to the long-term survival of the human race. that's what i have a problem with.

Again, this comes back to the institution which was created by man. It's funny, you and I actually agree on alot of these points. Yes, these "right" ideas can be harmful to society, but faith in something is not. I don't think you really mean to, but while making your points about organized religion you tend to slip into an attack on faith as a whole, as in an earlier thread when you said how people who believed outside of strict Christian ideals were catering to themselves. That is where you and I tend to disagree.I just think that when you make posts where you intend to argue about the negatives of Christianity or organized religion as a whole, you need to make it a point to not throw all people of faith under the bus. Maybe that too is your intention, I don't think it is.In fairness to DN, his beliefs are of a Christian nature, but this post was intended for the Christian audience. I think if you read the post it's fairly obvious that he is not preaching to those outside his faith, but rather preaching to those that fall right in it.

[mk 11]

where else on the web can you read discussion on topics as divergent as whether it is better to check-raise the flop with middle pair after defending your big blind in limit hold 'em and existentialism? (pardon the lack of parallelism)i love this place.

[crowTrobot 2]

I don't think that you address the why, because if you did then you wouldn't be as comfortable in your assumptions as you seem.  Do you write everything off that you can't explain to chaos?

nice misread of my post. i said nothing about chaos explaining anything. i just said the universe isn't necessarily all beautiful. i can't explain the universe - i'm saying i DON'T KNOW "why" (or more importantly if the why of our existence is even a meaningful question to ask) and neither do you, although your "feelings" combined with your tunnel-vision egocentric train of thought make you think you know.

Where did matter even come from, how did it start, why is there existence.  

how do you know it started? maybe it was always here in some sense. if the universe is infinite anything that can happen will happen (getting into technical weak anthropic arguments for existence).

In my mind ignoring the question of "why" and saying "well, everything is chaotic so I'll just leave it at that" is moving backwards as an inteligent species.

i'm not ignoring why, you are. you are invoking god out of thin air to explain what you don't understand without considering other possibilities as mankind in general has always done throughout history - that's moving backwards (or at best stagnating).

you tend to slip into an attack on faith as a whole, as in an earlier thread when you said how people who believed outside of strict Christian ideals were catering to themselves. That is where you and I tend to disagree.

christians like DN ARE catering to themselves - self crafting their belief out of what they personally feel is right. that's fine for someone with generic belief like you have (other than the indirect passive support for anti-science agendas that results). but people like DN who espouse christianity and the significance of jesus specifically (sin/redemption/hell, no man cometh to the father except by me etc) while ignoring all specifics in the bible are simply hypocrites. if DN truly believes the concepts posted above he needs to quit fooling himself and genericify like you lol.

[bearshadoe 0]

It took me a few years as an adult to figure out that most hypocrites of religion are those who go to church. I mean no offense to this anyone by this remark. I was baptized Catholic went to church until I was twenty-four, at which time I made the mistake of going back to a catholic church to please the family. I have not set foot in a church since, I was refered to as a pagan because I happen to wear a celtic cross, wonder what would have been thought of me had I worn my medicine wheel or Heaven forbid my Wiccan crystal.

[BilliardsBoy 0]

I can't explain the universe - I’m saying I DON'T KNOW "why" (or more importantly if the why of our existence is even a meaningful question to ask) and neither do you, although your "feelings" combined with your tunnel-vision egocentric train of thought make you think you know.I’m not ignoring why, you are. You are invoking god out of thin air to explain what you don't understand without considering other possibilities as mankind in general has always done throughout history - that's moving backwards (or at best stagnating).

The fact that you don’t care about the why of human existence is terrible. I tried to be respectful but forget it now. You come on here and attempt to bully people like a pathetic second-coming of Smash to show off your big words and bigger ego. At least people like me ask the question why. You’re nothing but a pompous antagonist who loves nothing more than to refute people who believe in something that you don’t understand. You don’t know why and don’t even care to ask, your posts make that pretty apparent. You talk about all the beauty of mankind as being something inside, yet you are so blind that you won’t even ask why we have that beauty and would laugh at someone like myself for listening to those feelings within. I don’t pull God out of thin air as you would suggest, it’s something inside of me that you would rather ignore. Science should and is used to explain the hows of the universe, but there is so much left unanswered in the why. For mankind to simply write these questions off and for YOU to ignore the possibility of something bigger as a possible factor in a universe that is infinite is a step backwards.Here’s the miraculous insight you’ve given us so far.How do you explain human essence?

feelings of any kind including "faith" feelings are most likely to be simply manifestations of something physical in our bodies.

Hmm, interesting. Feelings and emotions, imagination and intuition, and you’re satisfied with “something physical.” What a fantastic and insightful answer to an incredibly meaningful and complex question.Why is there a universe, how did matter form?

how do you know the question of why (having a purpose) isn't a human concept that the universe doesn't care about? does there necessarily have to be a why if the universe (or multiverse) is eternal in some sense?how do you know it started? maybe it was always here in some sense. if the universe is infinite anything that can happen will happen (getting into technical weak anthropic arguments for existence).

So questions like why and how the universe started are ridiculous to you. I think there are a couple of scientists in the world would love to argue this point with you. Funny how you write people like off when you have the balls to sit there and completely ignore GIANT questions about the universe and simple say “uh, it was always there I guess.”

just because we are capable of appreciating the order and symmetry of the universe it must have a purpose

Why is this such a hard thing for you to get? An entire universe out there, trillions of stars, life existing on the planet, chaos to the point of symmetry and order, and you don’t care.If anyone here is giving up on the difficult questions to cater to their own fears and ignorance it is plainly you. No one is suggesting that we plug the answer of God in for every question out there and search no further, but why are you so unwilling to accept anything other than “I don’t know.”It’s easier to say that everything just is. It’s easier to ignore the idea of God or something grander and feel comfortable not knowing. It’s easy to simply say that something without proof cannot be. You say we use faith as a crutch, I’d say you use ignorance as yours.

[mk 11]

anyone interested in reading the scientific community's discussion of the 'why' of the universe would do well to read janna levin's how the universe got its spots. it's a nice, colloquial history of quantum physics, if such a thing is possible.

[Guest]

He's not defining what God is

yes, which is exactly what makes the whole post pointless.

Then why are you bothering to respond to it??

[bearshadoe 0]

More to the point how can you define God, for everyone has their different views on that one and they are as different as night is from day. I studied a few different religions therefore my beliefs ae mixed. I believe there is a God but I also believe in the great spirit of the Native Americans since a friends grandfather is a Shaman. We shall all find our way to Heaven or Hell or another plain of existence.

[crowTrobot 2]

The fact that you don’t care about the why of human existence is terrible.

where did i say i don't care? i obviously care a great deal.

At least people like me ask the question why.

you aren't asking why, you're 'knowing' why based on some supposedly metaphysical feelings you have.

For mankind to simply write these questions off and for YOU to ignore the possibility of something bigger as a possible factor in a universe that is infinite is a step backwards.

i'm not writing off or ignoring any possibilites. you are.

Hmm, interesting. Feelings and emotions, imagination and intuition, and you’re satisfied with “something physical.” What a fantastic and insightful answer to an incredibly meaningful and complex question.

i'm not satisfied with any current answer. i'm saying we don't know the answer (although most tangible evidence indicates that all human thought processes and feelings/emotions are in fact likely to be physical).

So questions like why and how the universe started are ridiculous to you. I think there are a couple of scientists in the world would love to argue this point with you. Funny how you write people like off when you have the balls to sit there and completely ignore GIANT questions about the universe and simple say “uh, it was always there I guess.”

OMG where did i say any of that? i just said you're not considering (or not aware of) other possibilities besides an interested creator that account for what we see. i think those are great questions. however again, you're not asking them - you are 'knowing' the answers based on your feelings.

Why is this such a hard thing for you to get? An entire universe out there, trillions of stars, life existing on the planet, chaos to the point of symmetry and order, and you don’t care.

i can't comprehend the universe, so there must be a god, and he must have made the universe so i could exist. archaic, simplistic, egocentric thought process.

It’s easier to say that everything just is. It’s easier to ignore the idea of God or something grander and feel comfortable not knowing.

again, i'm not ignoring possibilites. you are.

[crowTrobot 2]

Then why are you bothering to respond to it??

because it's both hypocritical and ultimately detrimental to the maturation process of human society.

[avsfan 0]

Now someone has sent me this: “A religious person is trying to avoid hell; a spiritual person has already been there.”Religion is the nemesis of Christianity, and these types of contrasts point that out. Religious people are stuck in a religious points system that keeps track of everything. They are actually pretty confident that hell can be avoided based on their own point tally. By contrast, keeping track is the last thing spiritual people want to do, because their track record condemns them. They believe that they deserve hell and get heaven by God's grace. Spiritual people are constantly pinching themselves because they can't believe their good fortune. The last thing they want to do is tally up points, because that will only confirm what they already know: they don't have enough. Never will.

I like how the author used the word "trying". It is such a nice way of saying you will work really hard at it and fail. I totally agree with DN here in regards to religion and spirituality . The struggle for individual spirituality is continual, germain and unique to each invidual. Imo

[FOOSE1 0]

Religion divides. Religion says that you don't worship like me, which means were different, which means that I am right and you are wrong. I hate it when people say that I am religious...and I am a youth pastor.I explain that I am a Christian. I also explain that I don't have religion, I have a personal relationship with God. Religion does not equal a relationship.I think God hates religion. It divides His people.

My thoughts exactly. There have been a lot of horrible things done in the name of "religion". The twin towers bombers did so in the name of their "religion". I am like you . . . I am a Christian. I worship Christ not a "religion" . . . my relationship is with him.

[BilliardsBoy 0]

where did i say i don't care? i obviously care a great deal?

i'm saying i DON'T KNOW "why" (or more importantly if the why of our existence is even a meaningful question to ask)anyway how do you know the question of why (having a purpose) isn't a human concept that the universe doesn't care about? does there necessarily have to be a why

As an educated person at a very good school who was valedictorian in HS, I’d say that you not caring is EXACTLY what you are saying based on what YOU are saying.

you aren't asking why, you're 'knowing' why based on some supposedly metaphysical feelings you have.

No where in any post do I say I know anything. You continue to let your obvious hatred for people with faith get in the way of seeing that I’m not using God as some piss-poor excuse for answering the questions of the universe. I will point to God as a possible influence in the unfolding of the universe and its complexities, something that you refuse to do.

doesn't it make more logical sense to think that good things such as love, kindess, forgiveness, and helping fellow man that are ascribed to god COME FROM IN US??

The question of “why” still seems beyond your grasp. We are all aware of the how Crow, but WHY!!!!!!!!! Why do these things happen? What logical purpose is there to dream, to imagine, to feel? You continually ignore this question and shove the “how” in place of it. Open your eyes.

i'm not satisfied with any current answer. i'm saying we don't know the answer (although most tangible evidence indicates that all human thought processes and feelings/emotions are in fact likely to be physical)

If you are not satisfied, then why openly shut out any possible explanations that lend some insight into these questions?

i can't comprehend the universe, so there must be a god, and he must have made the universe so i could exist. archaic, simplistic, egocentric thought process.

I can’t comprehend God, so he must not exist, and the universe must therefore have no purpose. Ignorant, narrow-minded thought process.. i said nothing about chaos explaining anything. i just said the universe isn't necessarily all beautiful.

on some levels the universe is pretty chaotic and inefficient anyway

Who is contradicting themselves???again, i'm not ignoring possibilites. you are.

yet another load of feel-good simplistic-minded meaningless horse crap.i wanted to believe it when i was young, but quickly came to realize it's an extremely simplistic, illogical self-contradictory obviously man-made load of crap.

Cheers.

[crowTrobot 2]

As an educated person at a very good school who was valedictorian in HS, I’d say that you not caring is EXACTLY what you are saying based on what YOU are saying.

just because i'm open minded about the possibility that the universe or our existence might not necessarily have to have a pre-made purpose at all doesn't mean i don't care about the answer to those questions. i do care.

No where in any post do I say I know anything.

if you don't claim to know anything then what exactly is the point of your faith? you believe there is something beyond us, but you don't know exactly what it is? not mocking - serious question because i don't see the point. what exactly is all this about for you?

I will point to God as a possible influence in the unfolding of the universe and its complexities, something that you refuse to do.

i don't entirely discount the possibility of intelligent design (85% discount it maybe lol), and i've never posted otherwise. in fact i played devil's advocate and argued for it against smash once since he did totally discount it. there are some valid arguments for it, although the key for me is none of those arguments if they end up being correct say anything at all about a creator that is the slightest bit interested in us as individuals.

The question of “why” still seems beyond your grasp. We are all aware of the how Crow, but WHY!!!!!!!!! Why do these things happen? What logical purpose is there to dream, to imagine, to feel?

i'm actually quite open to the why, but maybe you should ask yourself why you think there necessarily has to be logical purpose at all? (beyond that these things might just simply be the beneficial results of biological evolution).

If you are not satisfied, then why openly shut out any possible explanations that lend some insight into these questions?

what expanations have i shut out? i don't understand. i will open-mindedly listen to any specifics if you have any, (other than validating anything with your inner feelings).

I can’t comprehend God, so he must not exist, and the universe must therefore have no purpose. Ignorant, narrow-minded thought process

haha. good one, except that i don't entirely discount the possibility of god/purpose, unlike you who are entirely discounting the possibility that existence has no meaning (other than what we ourselves give it).

Who is contradicting themselves???

i don't see the contradiction. some things (such as our genetic code) are overcomplex, wasteful, and inefficient - not really beautiful in the sense of order/symmetry/design. also if you get into possible interpretations/implications of quantum mechanics the universe tends to look REALLY ugly in an aesthetic sense. and those last two quotes of mine are out of context and have nothing to do with the possibility of universal creation or god's existence. they both either referenced biblical fundamentalism (i don't recall which on the 2nd quote you dredged) or in the quote from this thread referenced feel-good jesus-follower/bible-ignorers like DN who believe what they believe more for convenience than anything else.

[Jusbe 0]

I'm not a religious person. I don't believe in God, why would I? But I don't there's nothing wrong if somebody does, it's a personal thing.

[BilliardsBoy 0]

You question whether the question of "why" is even a meaningful question.You don't understand that people don't need faith to explain everything, which laughs in the face of the easy-to-make criticisms of people using religion for just that purpose, and now you're even more confused. I could say the same thing about "what the point" is in loving your family, but I'm not as narrow-minded as you.You NEVER make it seem like, in any of your posts, that you would possibly recognize the existence of a God. Dude, don't even try to patronize me or the other readers on this forum by saying otherwise. Nice try to backtrack though.You can't possibly believe that if there is an all-mighty creator who is tied into the entire universe that he wouldn't have the slightest interest in a living and intelligent being? And when did I say the universe had to be created for us? Never, but is it that hard to believe that God would care?You still don't understand that something like faith isn't a metaphysical thing you can touch and see. If you are going to ignore the only (what you would call) proof of this, which is the inner feelings of billions of humans worldwide, then I think you're discounting a lot.You DO discount the possibility of reason just as strongly as I would discount the lack of meaning. For you to try and say otherwise is wrong. Either you feel that or you don't, don't suddenly turn into a fence sitter just because you feel the need to save face.Sorry truth is that you came back at me with nothing. I easily pointed out the contradictions of your posts, the inability of you to comprehend the definition of the word "why", and all you can do now is backtrack when your pride was bitch-slapped by the very words you spoke. Yea I dug a bit, but it took all of two seconds to find you talking about God. The second quote is completely in context, since you were talking about the idea of God as being "n extremely simplistic, illogical self-contradictory obviously man-made load of crap. "Give it up man. It's nice that you wanted to try to come into a thread that had nothing to do with telling atheists what to believe, where Dan was talking to fellow Christians about what it really means to believe in God, but you couldn't resist. And now when faced with the fallacies of your own words your a scared and apologetic little boy.I eat kids up like you in real life son. Don't be so presumptuous to think you can call into question the ideals and beliefs of people and come out sounded like a genius. So sorry your childhood lead you to hate people with faith, which is obvious by the venom you always spew on this site, but if you were a real non-believer then you shouldn't give a damn what others think. You want to butt heads, I'll be there every time to butt right back at you skippy.PWNED IN THE FACE!!!!!!!!!!

[crowTrobot 2]

PWNED IN THE FACE!!!!!!!!!!

nice. in my last post or two i was trying to be civil and trying to avoid making this personal with you since you were taking it way too personally, but you aren't capable of seeing that. pretty immature.

You question whether the question of "why" is even a meaningful question.

meaning you are going on the ASSUMPTION that the universe has a purpose to ask why about, when there's no evidence that it does (other than your feelings). get off the me not understanding the concept of 'why' thing please. that's just stupid.

You NEVER make it seem like, in any of your posts, that you would possibly recognize the existence of a God. Dude, don't even try to patronize me or the other readers on this forum by saying otherwise. Nice try to backtrack though.

i'm agnostic and never claimed otherwise. look the word up please. you think i'm backtracking because you misread my posts earlier in this thread:you = god (probably?) exists because the universe is beautifulme = there are other possibilities you are being closed-minded aboutthat pretty much sums it up.

You can't possibly believe that if there is an all-mighty creator who is tied into the entire universe that he wouldn't have the slightest interest in a living and intelligent being?

it's a big jump from appreciating the beauty of the universe and speculating about intelligent design to invoking an almighty creator who is interested in us individually. they are separate things. i am NOT on the fence about the latter - there is no evidence whatsoever for one. in fact everything logically points against it.

You still don't understand that something like faith isn't a metaphysical thing you can touch and see.

no i understand perfectly (you mean physical obviously). it's you who refuse to entertain for one second the concept that you (or anyone else) just might not be smart enough to know on an absolute level whether feelings of faith are or aren't physically-based and illusionary - perhaps even biological evolved to fill a need/void and nothing more.

If you are going to ignore the only (what you would call) proof of this, which is the inner feelings of billions of humans worldwide, then I think you're discounting a lot.

all that's proof of is that humans are insecure about their mortality and belief in god conveniently appeases that insecurity. it's a bit more complex than that, but that's the short answer as to why mankind tends to be religeous. pretty basic stuff.

The second quote is completely in context, since you were talking about the idea of God as being "n extremely simplistic, illogical self-contradictory obviously man-made load of crap. "

no it can't be in context since i don't feel that way about someone postulating a creator based on observations of the universe. that quote would be specifically about biblical fundamentalism or something related to it. i misinterpreted what you believe the first time we exhanged posts, so if it was directed at you i apologise. that sounds like a response to LMD anyway.

I eat kids up like you in real life son.

your words aren't hurting me in the slightest since this isn't personal - and i'm probably twice your age lol. this isn't about you and me.

but if you were a real non-believer then you shouldn't give a damn what others think.  

WRONG. we are in a critical time for human society. the religeous right is changing the world for the worse as you write, and as i said before even passive believers who wouldn't think of endorsing anti-science agendas are indirectly lending support to them (including you). if i can help raise awareness of these issues (as well as how little people really consider the logic of what they believe) i certainly will attempt to do so. i do it on other sites also when the opportunity arises.

[gilbertology 0]

I agree completely with DN and the article he points too because it is simply more advantageous for evolution and the continuing existence of the human race to be spiritual rather than religious. In all seriousness, any scientific mind would tell you there is just as great a chance that we are all part of a computer program than there is an all powerful God. Just food for thought.

[bearshadoe 0]

are we sure there even is a God? and if so how can you be so sure there is. There was no god in this land before the white man came and the Native americans honered Mother Earth and everything that she gave them. so how can anyone say that their religion is the only one that is right and that others are wrong. If we went by certain facts like heritage, I am a Druid and that is not a popular thing to be. I am also learned in the art of herblore and such does that make me a witch. And there is always more to the universe then what meets the eye, we are just a little speck of dust in a vast expanse of both time and space. There is no reason why we are we just are. We are here for but a brief moment in time, though it may seem long.