playing super-ultra-short-stacked

[Sluggo 0]

In full-handed no-limit texas hold them, what's a good strategy when playing with only 5 bbs or so?Normally, as a stack dwindles, one ought to generally play more tightly and more aggressively, selecting hands with low implied odds. However, when the blinds threaten to gobble up a significant chunk of one's money, should one loosen his starting hand selection?Is it even possible to profit? Wtih only 1 bb, it's impossible to make money. With 10, it's easy. Where is the line drawn between those amounts?Disclaimer: To anyone who thinks this strategy is good, you are right. To anyone who thinks this strategy is bad, you are right. Don't argue.

[econ_tim 0]

Push with Ace-high, a pair or suited connected broadwayssomething like thisif you are saying you can't reload, then you need to play a hand before the blinds take you stack

[DrZebra 0]

At a game six months ago, a friend lent me 10 dollars in a deep stacked 2/5 NL game and I cashed out at 1800 dollars. Here's how:1. I had 2 BB and got AA and doubled up.2. That stroke of luck gave me the ability to play super short stacked.Despite what you may think, you do NOT want to wait for a good hand and push!!!Surprised? Let's say you get dealt 99. Seems decent, you push from middle position for 4 BB's. Because you have no more money, at the very least, you will get called by a limping hand like J10 offsuit and you will race. If there is a multi-way pot, you will no doubt only be able to take down the pot if you hit a set. Do NOT push with 99 if you have less than 10 BB's.I have two suggestions for things TO do:1. Sneak in multi-way unraised pots from late-position with connectors. That night, following the AA hand, I was SB and completed with Q8 and flopped a gutshot, it was checked around and turned a str8 (all for 5 bucks.) I doubled through again.2. (THis is counterintuitive)--when someone raises big and you do not suspect they have an overpair, but do suspect they will take down the pot uncontested, push or call all-in! At worst, you are a 2:1 dog which is better than getting involved in a 4-way pot with a big hand preflop.

[Sluggo 0]

1. Sneak in multi-way unraised pots from late-position with connectors. That night, following the AA hand, I was SB and completed with Q8 and flopped a gutshot, it was checked around and turned a str8 (all for 5 bucks.) I doubled through again. 2. (THis is counterintuitive)--when someone raises big and you do not suspect they have an overpair, but do suspect they will take down the pot uncontested, push or call all-in! At worst, you are a 2:1 dog which is better than getting involved in a 4-way pot with a big hand preflop.1. I don't understand this. Playing short-stacked annihilates your implied odds. Draws can sometimes be better with a shortstack because you can often play for odds on two streets instead of one, but I don't understand your logic. Why is it better to play Q8 with a short stack rather than a large stack?2. Why would anyone ever want to be a 2:1 dog rather than have a big hand in a big pot? I would certainly prefer to go all in with AKo with three other players instead of coinflipping with 55 against only one opponent.I'm afraid I just don't understand. Can you explain more?

[Guest XXEddie]

Do NOT push with 99 if you have less than 10 BB's. stop talking, now

[Sluggo 0]

Pushing with 99 in early or middle position seems bad to me. I think he's correct that in a multiway pot 99's equity is harshly reduced because it is sometimes playing for set value.

[DrZebra 0]

stop talking, now

hahahahaok, sluggo, the impression i got from above was that the person was looking to be shortstacked and not bust.ie, if i were to be shortstacked as many times in succession as i want, i too would take AKo in a multi-way pot any day of the week. however, if my goal is to not bust (say i'm on my last buy-in?) i want to be in there with one opponent if it has to be preflop and never with more than three.

[Sluggo 0]

If your goal is not to bust, why do you want even one opponent? Wouldn't it be best for everyone to fold?

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

I think in a cash game if you are down to five big blinds you should either rebuy, quit or go play a lower game. I'm not one of those guys who thinks that having a super big stack gives a player some kind advantage in a ring game but having a super low stack certainly makes you a marked man and gives you almost no opportunity to get value out of your big hands. Lets say that with the 5BB left you decide to move in any time you get a chance to open the pot with KQ or better. Now all good players have to do is call you with a similar but slightly better range of hands and gamble with you as a slight favorite in coin flips. Thats fine right? You're on a short stack so you need some luck to double up. You might draw out or you might get to hit the hay for some much needed rest. But what happens when you pick up AA or KK? Either everyone folds or you get called by a lesser hand and win a tiny pot which even after winning still leaves you in the same predicament. Move in or fold every hand.More importantly what about middle pairs and middle suited connectors which are ordinarily good flop taking hands? Now they become nearly useless since it is nearly mathemetically impossible for you to call a raise without sticking all your chips in the pot. So all your good luck at this point is wasted because when you flop your set or make two pair you don't have an opportunity to set a trap and win a big pot.Short stack play is extremely important in tournaments where survival pays the bills but when it comes to a cash game you should play a limit where you feel comfortable at least covering the one or two lowest stacks at the table. Mike Caro once said in essence that a bet saved is akin to a bet earned at the poker table. With only 5BB left in a NL game it might be time to "live to fight another day".

[Matt Over Aces 0]

Unless it's a tourney, don't play shortstacked.Reach into your wallet and get more chips on the table, or leave. It's a bad situation becuase you can't get full value for a hand and you can't make the appropriate moves without enough chips.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

There is a wealth of information you can get by just talking to cardplayers.One guy likes to buy in with 100 bucks in 2/3 NL because he likes to "build his stack through other people."In a related story, he feels very strongly about his "shortstack skills." He's pretty easy to read, and if you ever bet half his stack into him, he won't call without a set or an overpair.I cracked his aces with a suited connector. Poor bastard was up to 200 when it happened, too.

[Sluggo 0]

Unless it's a tourney, don't play shortstacked. Reach into your wallet and get more chips on the table, or leave. It's a bad situation becuase you can't get full value for a hand and you can't make the appropriate moves without enough chips.Playing shortstacked can often be more profitable than playing deepstacked. Realize that although you limit your options, you limit the options of your opponents as well. If you can adjust better you will gain a significant edge.

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

Well said Eddie that article by Dr. Zebra made absolutely no sense and contradicted itself about 3 times. I think the way to turn 10 to 1800 in a 2/5 game is probably to be the luckiest guy in the room or on the website or wherever it took place. Play your draws when there is no implied odds? Somewhere in Las Vegas David Sklansky is weeping softly. Actually forget that stuff and everyone just listen to Sluggo's advice and come find me in the NL games on Doyles Room. We'd love to have you.

[Sluggo 0]

Please use your brain.You have two choices:1)Buying in at 100NL with $1002)Buying in at 500NL with $100Bankroll requirements are very similar because the standard deviations per 100 are very close (based off of my PT stats).Which is situation is more profitable?

[jayistheman 0]

Bankroll requirements are very similar because the standard deviations per 100 are very close (based off of my PT stats). how many hands?i really find it hard to believe that there isnt way more variance with a short stack strategy.

[Sluggo 0]

Probably not enough to be statistically valid.Why would playing with a shortstack lead to more variance?

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

Probably not enough to be statistically valid.Why would playing with a shortstack lead to more variance?

Playing on a short stack usually leads to less variance and more losing. It's why no one ever talks about "being glad to be the shortstack". Almost every player I've ever played agianst who buys into a NL game for 10bb to 15bb or less is a weak player who almost always loses. Being chip leader is overrated unless you can also become the "table captian" but being on a severe short stack hurts your ability to actually play the game. If you just want to go all in for a few coin flips in a row than it is fine but there is no good argument for playing with 5-15 bb's and playing push and pray poker unless you just want to gamble up. There's nothing unethical or illegal about it but it's not a good strategy for trying to win.

[johnyblaze139 0]

Save your money and buy Ace on the River by Barry Greenstien and learn bankroll managment. Dont goto a hockey game with a baseball bat and expect to hit a homerun.

[Sluggo 0]

I still don't understand why playing with a shortstack is bad. Anyways, it isn't gambling on coinflips: AQ is a favorite over JT any day.

[johnyblaze139 0]

its a cash game not a tournament

[Ebonwoulfe 0]

I'm not even going to bother reading past the first post, but I figure that it's safe to say that you need to read Harrington on Hold Em Vol. 2. I also think it's safe to say that I'm not the first that suggests it.In a nutshell: it doesn't matter too much what your cards are, as long as you can push all-in before anyone else has called you should do ok. The trick here is that you don't WANT callers, you want to pick up the blinds without a fight. Pick your spots.Almost anything A thru Q high, suited connectors, and all pocket pairs are all-in hands. Don't CALL with these unnecessarily, but RASE all-in liberally. This way, you maximize your chances to win without a fight.

[akishore 0]

its a cash game not a tournament

wtf??that's his point!it's so frustrating reading these threads and reading seriously *ignorant* replies saying that shortstack play is just gambling and taking repeated coinflips, hoping to get lucky and double up.jesus. if i put my money in with AQ and my opponent calls with JT, I MAKE MONEY IN THE LONG RUN. I AM NOT HOPING TO GET LUCKY AND DOUBLE UP.aseem

[johnyblaze139 0]

if you want to put all your money in with AQ go ahead see what happens your more likely to get called by a better hand not J10

[Sluggo 0]

Why would you be more likely up against a better hand when you have AQ and open 5bb in MP?

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

I still don't understand why playing with a shortstack is bad. Anyways, it isn't gambling on coinflips: AQ is a favorite over JT any day.Why do people post questions on this site, then wait for other bloggers to spend their time and effort explaining different answers to these questions and then finally decide to disregard every response they've been provided. Certainly some posts contain great wisdom and others are worth little more than flatulence but on this topic several good reasons have been provided as to why playing an ultra short stack in a NL hold em cash game is far from an optimul strategy if you have any level of skill whatsoever. Should I repeat them? ... ... No I won't bother because they are all listed and many of them referenced to such pre-eminent professionals as Barry Greenstien and Mike Caro. Ask. Listen. Learn. A process which builds wisdom. But never; Ask. Ignore and then ask agian because that is a process which builds headaches.