hand against jayson weber at the mgm

[wrto4556 0]

I have 8 8 in the CO.jayson opens from the hijack, i 3-bet and we see a flop heads up.Flop is J ,T ,5 (6sb)jayson bets, I call.Turn is the 6 (4BB)Jayson bets, I raise...I had been raising the turn against Jayson all night with great hands. He had been paying me off or 3-betting better ones before this hand.

[custom36 4]

If he's been 3-betting with better hands, is this a raise/fold?I don't know Jayson's play too well, but if he calls and checks, I'd probably check behind on the river UI and fold to a turn 3-bet.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Prior to this I had 3-bet him on every turn short of one (where I was behind and needed to catch up on the river... luckily I did, he suprised me on that hand.) So this aggression from his wasn't out of the norm but he did it knowing I was calling down every hand (as I had from this point on).

[akishore 0]

is this for value or to fold a better hand or what? i mean, are you folding to a three-bet, or calling down?it would suck to fold to a three-bet when you have the river to improve (flush draw, set).aseem

[wrto4556 0]

raise/fold

[screech 0]

raise/fold

I would do this if the turn never put 3 clubs on the board. I guess your thinking was that if he never had much of a hand, it would set up a free showdown, if he had a hand, you could release it now, all for the same price? If he calls your raise and checks the river, do you value bet?The thing is, if he's 3-betting his better hands, he probably doesn't have a club. If he holds a jack, he only has one other card with a club. This makes it more likely your flush outs are good. Also, if he does have a lone club, he can't make a flush if you hit a set. I would give you about 6 outs here. I think folding to a 3-bet would be pretty bad. Getting 3-bet in general would suck. So I just call.Of course, if he has a lone club (that beats your 8) without a made hand, calling here gives him a free chance to outdraw you with likely 14 outs. If he doesn't have a club, he only has 6 outs to win. Either way, he's probably calling your raise with a decent chance to outdraw you, and folding with few outs against you. I think call/call is our best line here, since it gets us to showdown at the cheapest price with a hand that's hard to pinpoint where we stand.

[wrto4556 0]

ok, folding to a 3-bet is easy. Why would he 3-bet with anything that doesn't already beat an 8 high flush?He could have been semi-bluffing the flop with club/club or KQ. If it's KQ, I want to charge on the turn when i have an edge (even though its a small one if he has a club). If he has a T I would like for him to fold now. If he has a J, Im going to call a river bet anyway so I might as well get the free showdown and then value bet if I improve.That's what I was thinking when it happened.personally, I think I would have folded if the turn wasnt a club.

[screech 0]

Why would he 3-bet with anything that doesn't already beat an 8 high flush?

I was thinking he may be trying to protect a hand let 55 or JT. But that's silly, he'd probably wait for a safe card on the river if he was going to pop it.

personally, I think I would have folded if the turn wasnt a club.

Why?Is this because when he leads again, the chances of him having a draw are decreased?

[screech 0]

Okay, I've thought about this hand some more.What is he typically betting into you on the flop, after you 3-bet preflop?My thinking is:1) A mediocre hand - Pair of tens, pp below tens.2) A straight or flush draw.3) A monster (set, two pair)I find it very odd that he lead into you on the flop. When you called his flop bet, what were you trying to accomplish? Freezing him with a worse hand on the turn? Maybe catching one of your outs if you're behind?

[akishore 0]

i really don't like it, the more i think about it.the main purpose of these turn raises is for fold equity. if you are folding to a three-bet, you're paying the same price as you would with call/call but you lose the integral showdown. so, this means that you should have a key reason for doing it.you say that nothing he three-bets you on that turn you can beat. so you're implying that one reason for the raise is for information. well, how reliable is that information? and even if that informaiton is correct, you prevent yourself from being able to improve on the river.you also say that you're doing this to charge him. well, you forget that you're also charging yourself for the times YOU'RE behind but he doesn't three-bet.also, keep in mind that this is intended to be used against passive players. jayson is obviously not a passive player. doesn't he know about this common raise/fold line? wouldn't he three-bet you with a LOT of hands that you beat simply on a bluff, knowing that you're folding?as i said, this information won't be reliable because i can see him three-betting here with a LOT of trash hands, on bluffs, because he feels you will fold to a three-bet.finally, note that the whole "value bet on the river when i improve" thing is bogus. that again implies that you're up against a passive player who will check, and that you will be able to confidently value bet a good number of river cards.here, will he often check on the river? what if he leads out again on a brick turn? are you now making a crying call or folding because you've already spent the two bets you planned on spending to get to showdown? what if the river is a fourth club and he leads out? are you going to make a value raise or call, again spending three bets?alternately, if you just call the turn, the river comes an 8, he will likely bet out again, and NOW you can make a value RAISE. you still earn three bets the times you're behind.really, i think this raise is really wrong against a thinking, aggressive player. you leave yourself soooo vulnerable to getting bluffed off the best hand. you also prevent being able to see a showdown 100% of the time that you would be able to use with a call/call line.i see no purpose in it that outweighs all those disadvantages. correct me if i'm wrong.aseem

[screech 0]

Nice post aseem.Wrto, why would you probably fold if the club never hit the turn?

[wrto4556 0]

i really don't like it, the more i think about it.the main purpose of these turn raises is for fold equity. if you are folding to a three-bet, you're paying the same price as you would with call/call but you lose the integral showdown. so, this means that you should have a key reason for doing it.you say that nothing he three-bets you on that turn you can beat. so you're implying that one reason for the raise is for information. well, how reliable is that information? and even if that informaiton is correct, you prevent yourself from being able to improve on the river.you also say that you're doing this to charge him. well, you forget that you're also charging yourself for the times YOU'RE behind but he doesn't three-bet.also, keep in mind that this is intended to be used against passive players. jayson is obviously not a passive player. doesn't he know about this common raise/fold line? wouldn't he three-bet you with a LOT of hands that you beat simply on a bluff, knowing that you're folding?as i said, this information won't be reliable because i can see him three-betting here with a LOT of trash hands, on bluffs, because he feels you will fold to a three-bet.finally, note that the whole "value bet on the river when i improve" thing is bogus. that again implies that you're up against a passive player who will check, and that you will be able to confidently value bet a good number of river cards.here, will he often check on the river? what if he leads out again on a brick turn? are you now making a crying call or folding because you've already spent the two bets you planned on spending to get to showdown? what if the river is a fourth club and he leads out? are you going to make a value raise or call, again spending three bets?alternately, if you just call the turn, the river comes an 8, he will likely bet out again, and NOW you can make a value RAISE. you still earn three bets the times you're behind.really, i think this raise is really wrong against a thinking, aggressive player. you leave yourself soooo vulnerable to getting bluffed off the best hand. you also prevent being able to see a showdown 100% of the time that you would be able to use with a call/call line.i see no purpose in it that outweighs all those disadvantages. correct me if i'm wrong.aseem

a lot of this, if not all, is very very wrong. i just woke upm but ill rebuttle in a while.

[dreamcrusher28 0]

Hijack=1 before cutoff???

[Sundevils21 0]

Against aggressive players that will consistantly bet the flop and turn like this, I always raise that turn. If he 3bets you're done. If he calls you take free showdown. I'm always suprised how often people fold to that turn raise.Jayson might expect you're raising for showdown/semibluff and lead the river with a queen or jack anyway. That would be a good play by him and there is nothing you can do about it.-Travis

[Sundevils21 0]

I would really like to know wtf happened...-Travis

[allinbluff35 0]

I would really like to know wtf happened...-Travis

your avatar defines art

[wrto4556 0]

I would really like to know wtf happened...-Travis

he folded a T and I tabled 88.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Hijack=1 before cutoff???

I'm curious about this too, so I'll quote it.

[wrto4556 0]

Hijack=1 before cutoff???

I'm curious about this too, so I'll quote it.

hijack = 1 before cutoff

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Hijack=1 before cutoff???

I'm curious about this too, so I'll quote it.

hijack = 1 before cutoff

Thanks.

[akishore 0]

i'm not meaning to be results oriented, but jayson made a bad fold, and i still feel that your raise was bad against jayson, even though you folded a better hand this time.aseem

[wrto4556 0]

i'm not meaning to be results oriented, but jayson made a bad fold, and i still feel that your raise was bad against jayson, even though you folded a better hand this time.aseem

You think jayson's fold was bad?

[akishore 0]

You think jayson's fold was bad?

against you, a thinking, tricky and aggressive player who is very capable of a raise/fold line here with worse hands, yes. again, not meaning to be results oriented, but case in point is this hand.aseem

[wrto4556 0]

but case in point is this hand.

If he calls me down with middle pair every time he's ****ed. That's what makes my raise good.Im most likely going to showdown anyway.What reason is there NOT to raise for the free showdown?

[akishore 0]

If he calls me down with middle pair every time he's censored. That's what makes my raise good.

this is really true, i agree. if you have fold equity against a better hand, this raise is good.

Im most likely going to showdown anyway.

unless he three-bets you. or unless he stop-and-go's on certain bad river cards.

What reason is there NOT to raise for the free showdown?

mainly so if he is capable of three-betting with worse hands, which causes you to fold, or if he's capable of three-betting with better hands while you have a good number of outs to draw out (e.g. your flush draw is good, and his three-bet makes you fold it).so, let me summarize.this is good against a player who will fold some better hands and will rarely, if ever, three-bet a worse hand or one that you have odds to draw out on. that is, it's good against a weak/tight player.but, i don't think it's great against a tricky, thinking aggressive player who is capable of three-betting worse hands or even better hands which causes you to fold a live draw.i also don't think it works too great when you won't fold a better hand often enough, which might be the case against a LAG or against jayson sometimes if he knows, psychologically (e.g. thinking one level above you), that you are capable of making this raise with worse hands than his middle pair.since jayson does fold a better hand here, the raise was fine. but i assumed that those two conditions (he won't fold a better hand often enough, and he will three-bet with worse hands or hands you can draw out against) were met which made the raise bad.aseem