me, them, turn play..........

[Big Game Frank 0]

In an NL game with some limpers, it's usually not a great idea to raise PF with pocket 9's.  Basically, the plan is to limp PF, set it, or forget it.

I disagree.I raise preflop to thin the field with 9's so that when I am in a pot where I have a set and 2 cards to a flush, I don't have to be as concerned about people playing stuff like 56s. If he raised, he likely gets called by one or two people with an ace, thats who you want to pay you off here. At 1/2 NL, people rarely fold aces, your going to get paid off huge if raise instead of risking the loss by letting everyone and their 3rd cousin see a cheap flop.

ok, that is reasonable thinking, what do you raise to pre-flop? what if you get re-raised? the beauty of limping is it is so easy to get away from when re-raised... to all in this thread, it is OK to play post-flop poker... pushing all-in every time you flop a good hand is not the only way to skin a cat.. if it works for you then good luck to ya but poker is just more complex than that being optimal strategy...NL poker is about making some tough decisions... you can avoid this by pushing all-in but that doesn't necessarily make it more +EV... you are just avoiding a big part of the game that can be very profitable.The OP's strategy has merit... but you have to think about it differently... the size of the flop raise is definitely debatable and I think it should be bigger and I think he sees the merit in it being bigger... but as it stands, the size of that raise isn't the only factor in this hand.... if you think it is, then you don't understand post-flop play....you CAN make laydowns and be a good winning player. the OP had a logical strategy of seeing the turn card before attacking this pot... I can see good logic in that. if you can't, so be it.

[Big Game Frank 0]

now that I think about it more,there is one key assumption here in everyones thinking:Just HOW big are the donkeys at the table?If guys are often calling huge all-in overbets into small existing pots, then moving in right there makes a lot of sense....but if: guys are more willing to donk off their chips only after putting money in on flop -- than the OP's strategy has more merit.... especially so since it is better to get all your money in with 1 to come than 2 to come...There are 3 key advantages in waiting for the turn to push:1) You make a bigger amt when turn comes no flush card 2) You get all-in with SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER odds if you DO get called on the turn.... 3) A 'smaller than all-in' raise on flop might induce a worse hand to re-raise you...all at the cost of missing out on picking up a sure small pot when you move all in on flop and everyone folds.... to me, this is just a trade-off in how you view your opponents....at very low NL tables, moving all in makes more sensethan at something like 2/4...1/2 NL is prob in between. often donks... but often not SO MUCH SO that they will call huge all-in overbets into small existing pots.... if you think differently... so be it.

[looshle 6]

C) My quest is for a middle-big pot here with my risk being no more than $18 I have now invested. This is why my min. raise is good IMO, because I haven't committed myself to anything further if the board gets uglier. Card comes blank on Turn I have a nice $100 bullet to throw in the pot and any donkey drawing to his 20% (flush draw with one to come) shot can feel super free to call me at this point.You're essentially saying the same thing eeveryone is but it sounds like you want to put your money in on the turn instead of the flop because you only want to allow them 1 card to draw out on you. It sounds like you're afraid of being outdrawn by a flush on the flop because they have to chanes at it. You want to commit yourself on this flop, because you are ahead, you can only put your money in when you are ahead and you should be committed to this pot, and commit yourself on the flop. Since you are going to be committed you might as well push it in on the flop because no matter what your money would be going in on the turn.But the way you played it, you have to check the turn and hope the board pairs.

[Big Game Frank 0]

<< Since you are going to be committed you might as well push it in on the flop because no matter what your money would be going in on the turn. >>no, that is ridiculous... your money is not going all-in no matter what on the turn... it depends on the flop action and the turn card.there is some logic, even in donkeys... a true donkey will put a lot of money in chasing a flush when the pot is bigger than when it is small... even with only 1 to come... they have committed a bunch of money and they want to hit that flush, god damn it.... and then complain that they are not hitting their draws and that is why they are losing....

[looshle 6]

<< Since you are going to be committed you might as well push it in on the flop because no matter what your money would be going in on the turn. >> no, that is ridiculous... your money is not going all-in no matter what on the turn... it depends on the flop action and the turn card. So if you commit yourself on the flop, you will fold or check scary turn card? That, my friend, is what is ridiculous.Do you even know the definition of pot commitment?

[looshle 6]

Flop: ($10) 7, A, 9 (5 players)looshle I was dealing with a board that had JUST a flush draw. Their wasn't three to a straight and a flush on the board68 is open ended. T8 is open ended. JT has a gutshot. 56 has a gutshot.There was no raise preflop, you can't discount these hands.

[KDawgCometh 2]

<< Since you are going to be committed you might as well push it in on the flop because no matter what your money would be going in on the turn. >>no, that is ridiculous... your money is not going all-in no matter what on the turn... it depends on the flop action and the turn card.

its not ridiculous. If you decided to quote the rest of my post I would've epxalined how this is happeneing. By calling the flop alone our staqck is down to ~100. Obviously we want to raise here, so by raising to 30 or 40 our stack is now down to anywhere between $80-70 and if we get a caller or two the pot will be too big for us to really lay down if we are behind considering our outs. We are looking at an $18 pot before we make even one move, we raise it up to say 40, we are now looking at a $58 pot and we will have $70 left, and that is just by our actions alone here, so if we get one caller the pot will then be laying us ~$100 and we will have $70 left getting 1.3 on a turn push, but with the implied odds of being called we are getting well over 2-1 to push on the turn, and that is a winning play considering our boat outs. NOw if we have another caller on teh flop the pot will be even bigger, so by raising to 30 or 40 basically we are committed to the pot. If he had a deeper stack then we wouldn't be so commited, but our stack situation indicates that any normal raise that we make on the flop that gets called commits us to the pot, so therefore we push on the flop. The min raise that the OP made priced in every draw and was just dumb, this is a coordinated flop and we don't have a deep stack

[WaitingforMyRuca 0]

C) My quest is for a middle-big pot here with my risk being no more than $18 I have now invested. This is why my min. raise is good IMO,This is why you're a losing player. It's amazing you try so hard to censored up such an easy hand.Good luck.

I either lose $18 when the club comes or win $75 when no club comes or more if donk calls off chasing. Again Smash, going all in on the flop to win $17-$18 is +EV for someone that plays SNG Poker. If it works for you then Great!! Why don't you just try and be positive? What do you accomplish by being condescending? I promise you that I will not respond to you unless you come up with something intelligent. So consider your input invalid/ignored from here on out. Good Luck...Take Care...and TY!!

i understand that he was kind of an ass when he responded, but he is right. I would have def bet more on the flop. It is wrong more often than not to hit that little button that raises the min in no limit. You don't have to like smash as a person, but take his advice seriously, along with many other regulars in the strat section. I agree he was kind of a dick, but at least take the good parts of his response, and talk shit after

[mjd 0]

1. Move in on the flop.2. Since you didn't check behind.

Yup, this one is trivially easy. At this limit, someone is going to call you with their flush or staight draw because they are bad at math.At higher limits, you can bet less than all your chips, but you still need to give the callers less than the correct odds on completing their draw.

[looshle 6]

<< Since you are going to be committed you might as well push it in on the flop because no matter what your money would be going in on the turn. >>no, that is ridiculous... your money is not going all-in no matter what on the turn... it depends on the flop action and the turn card.

its not ridiculous. If you decided to quote the rest of my post I would've epxalined how this is happeneing. By calling the flop alone our staqck is down to ~100. Obviously we want to raise here, so by raising to 30 or 40 our stack is now down to anywhere between $80-70 and if we get a caller or two the pot will be too big for us to really lay down if we are behind considering our outs. We are looking at an $18 pot before we make even one move, we raise it up to say 40, we are now looking at a $58 pot and we will have $70 left, and that is just by our actions alone here, so if we get one caller the pot will then be laying us ~$100 and we will have $70 left getting 1.3 on a turn push, but with the implied odds of being called we are getting well over 2-1 to push on the turn, and that is a winning play considering our boat outs. NOw if we have another caller on teh flop the pot will be even bigger, so by raising to 30 or 40 basically we are committed to the pot. If he had a deeper stack then we wouldn't be so commited, but our stack situation indicates that any normal raise that we make on the flop that gets called commits us to the pot, so therefore we push on the flop. The min raise that the OP made priced in every draw and was just dumb, this is a coordinated flop and we don't have a deep stack

He was quoting me, still wrong nonetheless.

[firstyearclay 0]

to all in this thread, it is OK to play post-flop poker... pushing all-in every time you flop a good hand is not the only way to skin a cat.. if it works for you then good luck to ya but poker is just more complex than that being optimal strategy... the size of the flop raise is definitely debatable and I think it should be bigger and I think he sees the merit in it being bigger... but as it stands, the size of that raise isn't the only factor in this hand.... if you think it is, then you don't understand post-flop play....you CAN make laydowns and be a good winning player. the OP had a logical strategy of seeing the turn card before attacking this pot... I can see good logic in that. if you can't, so be it.Frank understands this game. There are 3 key advantages in waiting for the turn to push:1) You make a bigger amt when turn comes no flush card2) You get all-in with SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER odds if you DO get called on the turn....3) A 'smaller than all-in' raise on flop might induce a worse hand to re-raise you... One thread leader needs to read this, or he will be stuck in $25 max games the rest of his twenties.....loosh:You want to commit yourself on this flop, because you are ahead, you can only put your money in when you are ahead and you should be committed to this pot, and commit yourself on the flop.If I am ahead....then why am I going to push others out??? I want to make money not push it away. What if the club obvious draw is a dream 7c??? and I stack two pair and duel flushes???no, that is ridiculous... your money is not going all-in no matter what on the turn... it depends on the flop action and the turn card.So if you commit yourself on the flop, you will fold or check scary turn card? That, my friend, is what is ridiculous.Do you even know the definition of pot commitment?I know when to fold especially middle set if the board comes runner runner club or runner runner straight and their is heavy action before I act. I am not going to dump off chips just because I am pot committed. I think you have some valid points loosh, thanks for your input.

[Smasharoo 0]

to all in this thread, it is OK to play post-flop pokerSure it is. Not to misplay it like you did in this hand, though.Good luck.

[nrs02004 0]

firstyearclay, you my friend are a huge censored...You want to make your opponents make mistakes. In general min-raising is retarded. In this situation min-raising is especially retarded.A) You give everyone odds on you; The straight draw, the flush draw. You are practically give the overset draw odds on you...B) If someone has a crummy hand, you're not making an money on them anways because they aren't gonna call with a crappy hand when there is already a raise and a reraise ahead of them.It would be hugely better to reraise either 40 more or all-in. 40 more can get a reraise by someone overplaying an AK/AQ, and you have the added advantage of getting a BS call by a flush draw, having them miss the turn, and then giving them another chance to misplay. At this limit all-in can easily get a call by one of the donk with an AK or AQ, and even they probably see that calling with a flush draw is retarded. You will get action when you are way ahead, and lose action on the hands that can outdraw you.But I still stick by my original thought:firstyearclay, you my friend are a huge censored...

[firstyearclay 0]

to all in this thread, it is OK to play post-flop pokerSure it is. Not to misplay it like you did in this hand, though.Good luck.A) Go All-in on the flop, get called by ACE high flush draw, get stacked -EVB) Raise.... keep draws in, possibly make make more money or lose less +EVGood theory.... especially since you think I fill up on the river in a earlier reply and now think I lose???Good Care Take Luck LMAO!!!!

[Smasharoo 0]

Good theory.... especially since you think I fill up on the river in a earlier reply and now think I lose??? Never said you lost, said you misplayed it.People misplay hands and win all the time. That's the reason I don't have a car payment.Take care.

[WaitingforMyRuca 0]

I respect some of the posters that I have read over the last 6 months (AKi and SuitedUp!!) and would appreciate any and ALL comments, suggestions, and ideas from all levels of play.

You asked for advice and you got it. Then just because people told you the truth you got all butt-hurt. That really leads me to believe that you weren't looking for advice, just people to be like, "oh, you played perfectly." When that didn't happen you replied by defending your play and basically trying to tell everyone else they were wrong. Don't ask for advice if you think you are right and just want praise, cause you aren't going to get it.

[firstyearclay 0]

firstyearclay, you my friend are a huge censored...You want to make your opponents make mistakes. In general min-raising is retarded. In this situation min-raising is especially retarded.Agreed thanks for taking the advice from the nineteen ther people that agree I raised incorrectly. Way to jump on the BW bro!!A) You give everyone odds on you; The straight draw, the flush draw. You are practically give the overset draw odds on you...Umm I am not laying 24-1 for an over set to draw on me....get a clue.... that is the single dumbest thing said in this post. Congrats you get the award!B) If someone has a crummy hand, you're not making an money on them anways because they aren't gonna call with a crappy hand when there is already a raise and a reraise ahead of them.Did you notice that I had TWO cold callers oop???It would be hugely better to reraise either 40 more or all-in. Agreed!40 more can get a reraise by someone overplaying an AK/AQ, and you have the added advantage of getting a BS call by a flush draw, having them miss the turn, and then giving them another chance to misplay.Great say this is you??? You bet $40 and the club comes?? What are you gonna do???At this limit all-in can easily get a call by one of the donk with an AK or AQ, and even they probably see that calling with a flush draw is retarded. You will get action when you are way ahead, and lose action on the hands that can outdraw you.Read Franks posts thanks!But I still stick by my original thought:firstyearclay, you my friend are a huge censored... You feel better now?? Good put your hard on away......

[firstyearclay 0]

I respect some of the posters that I have read over the last 6 months (AKi and SuitedUp!!) and would appreciate any and ALL comments, suggestions, and ideas from all levels of play.

You asked for advice and you got it. Then just because people told you the truth you got all butt-hurt. That really leads me to believe that you weren't looking for advice, just people to be like, "oh, you played perfectly." When that didn't happen you replied by defending your play and basically trying to tell everyone else they were wrong. Don't ask for advice if you think you are right and just want praise, cause you aren't going to get it.

I just don't understand smoosh's condescending tone that is all. I want to hear what all would say and want to take tim to comment on what all have to say. I didn't play it perfectly that is why I am seeking advice/answers. I just dont agree with ALL-IN on the flop for $17. I never said anyone was wrong, I just want a deeper explanation to "why go all-in on the flop", not "Go all in on the flop donkey"???

[Smasharoo 0]

I just don't understand smoosh's condescending tone that is all. I want to hear what all would say and want to take tim to comment on what all have to say. I didn't play it perfectly that is why I am seeking advice/answers. I just dont agree with ALL-IN on the flop for $17. I never said anyone was wrong, I just want a deeper explanation to "why go all-in on the flop", not "Go all in on the flop donkey"???Beacuse of the substatial overlay provided to draws by the current pot size and the likleyhood of more than one caller to a small bet or raise, you make it correct for draws to call unless you overbet the pot by a large amount. Because of the number of potential callers, many hands have substatial equity here to call any raise that doesn't massively overbet the pot, and you take a hand you could force players to make inccorect decisons on (the first player to call your all in almost allways wrong, if there are two cold calls of the all in, the third caller is almost allways right because of the size of the now massive pot) and instead alow them to make *correct* calls by not using the most important tool in the NL players arsenal, pot size/call size ratio manipulation.Moving in here forces everyone else to make a tough decision, call behind, or fold a strong draw.You tend to make money when people make bad decisions. Give them the oportunity to do that.

[KDawgCometh 2]

OP, I have fully given the reason as to why you need to push the flop, and you haven't even addressed what I said. You are either choosing to ignore it, or for some reason don't accept it. Of course there is nothing wrong with playing postflop poker, but you really messed this one up everywhich way. If you had a deeper stack then you wouldn't need to push the flop and just make a decent raise instead of the bad raise you made. YOu are generally ignoring the advice you've been given and trying to argue with smash, and that doesn't normally work out for those who try. Either accept the advice, or be more tactful in disagreement

[firstyearclay 0]

Hero checks.River: ($74) A:spade: (4 players)SB bets $28, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to $89.5, Hero ????Comments or Suggestions.

[KDawgCometh 2]

Hero checks.River: ($74) A:spade: (4 players)SB bets $28, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to $89.5, Hero ????Comments or Suggestions.

are you serious, you just filled up, what do you think the obvious play here is

[firstyearclay 0]

Hero checks.River: ($74) A:spade: (4 players)SB bets $28, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to $89.5, Hero ????Comments or Suggestions.

are you serious, you just filled up, what do you think the obvious play here is

MP1 raises to $89.5

[KDawgCometh 2]

Hero checks.River: ($74) A:spade: (4 players)SB bets $28, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to $89.5, Hero ????Comments or Suggestions.

are you serious, you just filled up, what do you think the obvious play here is

MP1 raises to $89.5

why don't you think I noticed that, of course I did. He probably has trips, push in and laugh, like I said, you filled up, what is the question, other than another 9 what other card would you want to hit

[looshle 6]

other than another 9 what other card would you want to hitA 7 or a 5 so that whoever had aces up would have a lower boat.a7 a9 and a5, now have the OP beat.