settle a debate

[Beavis68 0]

*I have read the book, thats why I got into the debate because in Beavis original threads he was preaching that the math was correct here when Dan H was really explaining about reads in a NL tourney! I only said that I would fold and that w/ 40+ BB left he would have plenty of folding equity rather than a possible bad EV+ situation.*I was explaining that this was an isolated play that is normally a fold mathematically!!!!!!!!! He kept insisting this should be the norm to call here.*I know Im right so Im done debating it, BTW, I pray to God above that you Beavis are at my table next time Im in Vegas playing 10/20 NL!PS: and I hope you got KJs when I raise...... lol lol lol lol lol lo ll o... FOOOOOL

Hey jedi. Sorry about the mix up, i read your post wrong., The pot odds are even worse.here is a link for Beavis to look overhttp://wizardofodds.com/holdem/10players.htmlalso., there was an old thread saying 11 : 1 is what you need to complete small blind with junk like 7,2 off. which only wins 5% of the time.therefor, saying that 1.17 : 1 is good enough odds to push your chips with a hand like K,J. well thats just ridiculous

First off, there is a difference between calling a sb and calling an allin.second, I didnt say that 1.17 was good enough.the pot actually contained 14k in chips and it was 8.2k to call. that is 1.7:1And it was not against a guy that limped UTG and pushed all-in (a sign of a good hand) it is a gainst a guy that limped after limpers and was prone to pushing (a sign of a drawing hand), therefore Dan expect to be a favorite.Maybe you should check out www.twoplustwo.comGood site, it is Mason Malmuth's forum, and David Sklanksy, Greg Raymer, Paul Phillips, Daniel, Jen Harmon, and others post there from time to time.

[bobbywithani 0]

Alright dude, you are trying to use one specific hand as a rule this play. There have been times in a tourney that someone has pushed on the turn, and I called with an Ace high. Normally I will not do this, 99% of the time, however a few times I have because I thought the guy didn't have anything so in that particular circumstance it was the winning play. That doesn't mean that it should be done evertime. Pot odds has nothing to do with it. Getting only 1.7:1 early in a torurney, does not constitute even taking a counflip.

[JEDI_Master 0]

*Beavis, I just spent 1-1/2 hours talking this hand over with a friend of mine and local poker legend of whom I trust and would put up my life's savings to bankroll in a heartbeat:*First, I do not apologize for debating, but I dont like name calling or any other methods I used. What we have here is what my friend coined as common when players are learning: What you are doing is like a quack preacher taking one verse out of the bible and making a doctrine out of it. This hand in no way should be used to set the example of the "proper" play. Once again, Even the math does not validate the call pre flop for all his chips w/KJs early in a major event(1.7:1 w/KJ vs at best underpair race situation is not enough considering all the factors). *You are convinced otherwise, so I will agree to dis agree but be warned, there are many people whom I spoke to about this hand including myself who believe completely opposite and siting hands like Gus Hansen calling all his chips w/ 10-8 or any other hand in which a pro may have made a huge call for all thier chips and won is irrelavent. You cannot use hindsight for plays specifically made on gut instincts/reads/etc and try to validate it with bad math. Isolated plays where a questionable play might have been made based on a players instinct should not be used to set doctrine!*Finally, this debate is over, please dont respond more with your broken calculator, we obviously dont see eye to eye, my only other contention for you is to look at most of the replies on all these posts. They mostly agree with me?? HMMM I guess were all wrong here.... But honestly, play how you wanna play man, I dont care! I just got involved because you made me think???whew, thats rough lol lol, I was taken back, saying have I been mis calculating for 27 years???lol lol No I have not, you are mis reading and thats sad, once again, you cannot take an isolated hand and try to make it "LAW", this hand situation is a normal EASY FOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IM DONE.................................................

[....Ian.... 0]

shouldnt have raised with that many limpers.you gotta fold the raise.the most iffy all in call i make is if i have an ace (5 kicker or better) and i'm getting laid 2-1....but even then ....i'd fold for that big a bet

[nealdo17 0]

Royal,Thank you for putting the time and effort into showing Beavis he is a fucktard. He will never understand how horrible this play is for a few reasons:1) Obviously he wins the debate if we side with him2)He made the play and therefore stands by it3)He sucked out on somebody with this garbage play and is trying to justify it4)He didnt suck out or maybe actually got sucked out with a worse hand than KJ and is defending his play.Regardless of the reason he is wrong. The whole hand sucked giant donkey dick.Beavis vs Royal = -EV for Beavis

[nealdo17 0]

By the way Beavis, you mentioned 2+2. . . put this crap on two + two and see how much you get flamed. HORRIBLE.PLAY.PERIOD

[blueodum 0]

Okay,(Let me preface this by saying that the numbers are different thatn the OP's example)Say there is 12.5 k in the pot and you need to put in 9 k to calln (all your chips).Further, suppose you reckon you are a 40/60 dog if you call.40 percent of the time you will win 21.5k; 60 percent you will have nothing left. Your expected resulting chips after calling is .4*21.5 k = 8.6 kIf you fold, you will have 9k chips left.THEREFORE, IF YOU THINK YOU ARE A 40/60 dog, YOU SHOULD FOLDIf it's a coinflip, it becomes a marginal call because you gain 1.75 K in expected chips. However, there is a 50% risk you will be knocked out of the tournament, and since your M is 30 even after you fold, you are under no pressure to take risks.IMO, it's better to wait for a better situation to build your chipstack, even if, techically speaking, the pot may be offering you sufficient odds to call.It was a very weird play for the button to limp after the limpers if he held a super-strong hand. The only way that makes sense is if he was very sure either the SB or BB would raise behind him. That is almost never the case, so the precise situation here dictates that the button is either a) incompetent or B) making a move.I still don't like the idea of taking a risk like this early in a tournament, even if the pot odds would justify a call in a cash game situation.

[Beavis68 0]

Okay,(Let me preface this by saying that the numbers are different thatn the OP's example)Say there is 12.5 k in the pot and you need to put in 9 k to calln (all your chips).Further, suppose you reckon you are a 40/60 dog if you call.40 percent of the time you will win 21.5k; 60 percent you will have nothing left.  Your expected resulting chips after calling is .4*21.5 k = 8.6 kIf you fold, you will have 9k chips left.THEREFORE, IF YOU THINK YOU ARE A 40/60 dog, YOU SHOULD FOLDIf it's a coinflip, it becomes a marginal call because you gain 1.75 K in expected chips. However, there is a 50% risk you will be knocked out of the tournament, and since your M is 30 even after you fold, you are under no pressure to take risks.IMO, it's better to wait for a better situation to build your chipstack, even if, techically speaking, the pot may be offering you sufficient odds to call.It was a very weird play for the button to limp after the limpers if he held a super-strong hand. The only way that makes sense is if he was very sure either the SB or BB  would raise behind him. That is almost never the case, so the precise situation here  dictates that the button is either a) incompetent or B) making a move.I still don't like the idea of taking a risk like this early in a tournament, even if the pot odds would  justify a call in a cash game situation.

Wow, you actually show the capacity to analyze a hand properly, that is great.Dan Harrington thought he was much better than 40/60 more in the 50-55% range to win. And he was getting 1.7:1 on his money.This makes the call clearly +EV.

[Beavis68 0]

By the way Beavis, you mentioned 2+2. . .  put this crap on two + two and see how much you get flamed.  HORRIBLE.PLAY.PERIOD

Maybe you are not aware that Dan Harrington's book was published by 2+2, and has been one of their most successful books to date.2+2 does not flame people for making +EV calls, they flame them for folding in profitable situations because they want to "survive".

[Beavis68 0]

Royal,Thank you for putting the time and effort into showing Beavis he is a fuck* He will never understand how horrible this play is for a few reasons:1) Obviously he wins the debate if we side with him2)He made the play and therefore stands by it3)He sucked out on somebody with this garbage play and is trying to justify it4)He didnt suck out or maybe actually got sucked out with a worse hand than KJ and is defending his play.Regardless of the reason he is wrong. The whole hand sucked giant donkey dick.Beavis vs Royal = -EV for Beavis

What an amazingly hatefull person you must be.And fairly blind too, the only thing that Royal showed is that he can't calculate pot odds or evaluate hands.Except for a few here, this forum must be dominated with 14-16 year olds that just began playing poker.If Dan Harrington's play was wrong here, please show the math of why, and what the minimum hand needed to call with here would be for it to be correct. But you can't do that can you.Try reading Harrington on Holdem, you may learn something.

[Beavis68 0]

Here is a post from Paul Phillips' blog www.extempore.livejournal.com

So far I've played six events at the WSOP. In the four limit events I've played (two omaha/8, two stud/ I haven't come within a million miles of cashing. I think I only went above my starting chips in one of them. In the $5K no-limit holdem I had over 25K after two levels, and in the $2K no-limit holdem yesterday I had 15K during the 5th level. Yeah, yeah, stick to NLH.  I played an unusually good tournament, tight when I needed to and going agro when I needed to. I lost half my chips during the first orbit bluffing into a set of aces, but after that I zigged when I was supposed to zig and zagged when I was supposed to zag. An especially satisfying hand was during the 100-200 blinds when a solid player made it 400 in early-mid position and I re-popped him to 1000 from his immediate left with 88. Heads-up we saw a flop of AJx. He checked and I bet 600 into the 2300 pot. He took a bit of time and check-raised to 1200. I thought it through and re-raised him to 2400 and he passed.  Then right after dinner this hand came up. I had about 13K against par 10K. My table included two big stacks in the hands of fairly exploitable players and I was dying to put together enough chips to put a big hurt on one of them. We were seven-handed thanks to our busting three guys in the first post-dinner orbit. Blinds were 200-400/50. I opened for 1200 in the cutoff with JhTh. The button, who had just been moved to our table a few hands ago mini-raised to 2400. Of course I called it, as neither folding nor re-raising is plausible here. There was a little under 6000 in the middle and I had slightly over 10K left, which he covered by a few thousand.  The flop comes 992 with two hearts. I check intending to check-raise all-in but he upends the apple cart by moving all-in. Now that's a pretty big bet, nearly twice the pot, but the more I thought about it the more convinced I became that I was anywhere from 50-55% to win unless I was super-unlucky and he had AhKh. It was much more likely he had a medium pair or AK. To have me in bad shape without the nut flush draw he'd have to have TT-AA and I felt he'd have bet smaller with those hands to keep me around.  On a 9h9s2h board, how JhTh fares against some possibilities:  vs. AcKd: 55.7%  vs. AhKd: 49.9%  vs. 7c7s: 52.0%  vs. TcTs: 35.2%  vs. AcAs: 32.8%  vs. AhKh: 20.7%  I'm getting 1.6-1 on the call so I only have to be 38% to win, maybe very slightly better taking tournament realities into account. Against my estimate of his range it turns out to be a much easier call than I made it out to be at the time. His actual holding was AhQc so I was 49.6%, but the board bricked out and I was done. Obviously in hindsight I wish I'd fired first but based on the preflop mini-raise I thought he'd underbet the pot again and my check-raise would have some real force. Oh well. It's not that often I can check-call all-in holding Jack-high late in a tournament against a big overbet and be glad I did it.

[DB10-2 0]

oh ya.. btw.if your debate is about pot odds, making it a correct call.. this shouldnt even be a debate

Care to explain?

yes. This call is not justified by the amount in the pot for your investment.meaning., The Pot odds are not high enough to make this a good call.meaning, if it was a debate about, "yes you should call because of the money in the pot" well thats incorrect

also, it's the first day of a slow-moving major buy in tournament. why get into a race--possibly against an unknown--for all of your chips? there are better spots than with KJ.

[JEDI_Master 0]

Hey guys, check out pokerpages.com forum / advanced, they started a whole new thread just to insult Beavis! lol lol You just wont give up will you! We allready proved that your calculator is broke including the one in your brain(if you have on??). I told you that plyrs on the net are well versed in poker theory, pot odds, variance etc.. you start talking you nonsense and youlll get sniffed out.*time to get a new handle and start trolling w/ a new ID lol lol lol lol

[Beavis68 0]

oh ya.. btw.if your debate is about pot odds, making it a correct call.. this shouldnt even be a debate

Care to explain?

yes. This call is not justified by the amount in the pot for your investment.meaning., The Pot odds are not high enough to make this a good call.meaning, if it was a debate about, "yes you should call because of the money in the pot" well thats incorrect

also, it's the first day of a slow-moving major buy in tournament. why get into a race--possibly against an unknown--for all of your chips? there are better spots than with KJ.

Because the opportunity to get 1.7:1 on your money doesn't come up very often.For good poker players, their time is valuable, if they get knocked out of a tournament, they can play a cash game.Guys like Dan Harrington, Gus H, and Daniel don't want to 3 days playing just to get 2-3x their buy-in back. They want to put their time to best use.

[bobbywithani 0]

Alright so now your argument is that simply because the pros can afford lose their money and go to the cash games, that makes it the right play? I guess there is really nothing that can be said to make you realize that you are wrong. BTW deciding to go out out of the money instead of cashing for 3x your buy-in is -EV

[blahdot3h 0]

raising in the BB right there was a bad raise for one, and there is no way in hell you can call the all-in. The person on the button has to assume you have a good enough hand to call his raise if you are raising into 5 limpers so he isn't going to do it with garbage. Him limp raising you from the button should be a little scary too.

[Royal_Tour 0]

oh ya.. btw.if your debate is about pot odds, making it a correct call.. this shouldnt even be a debate

Care to explain?

yes. This call is not justified by the amount in the pot for your investment.meaning., The Pot odds are not high enough to make this a good call.meaning, if it was a debate about, "yes you should call because of the money in the pot" well thats incorrect

also, it's the first day of a slow-moving major buy in tournament. why get into a race--possibly against an unknown--for all of your chips? there are better spots than with KJ.

Because the opportunity to get 1.7:1 on your money doesn't come up very often.For good poker players, their time is valuable, if they get knocked out of a tournament, they can play a cash game.Guys like Dan Harrington, Gus H, and Daniel don't want to 3 days playing just to get 2-3x their buy-in back. They want to put their time to best use.

5 years ago. I'd say this statement is somewhat accurate.But today, Pro's arent playing tourny's for the cash, Its all about the recognition now. Look at moneymaker, he is a douchebag, and a nobody, but now he's got ventures and deals coming out of his ass

[Atlanta Fats 0]

settle a debateCan a debate ever really be settled?

[potpumper43 0]

Dan Harrington isn't in any hurry to go join the cash games, I hear he rarely plays them.

[Beavis68 0]

Dan Harrington isn't in any hurry to go join the cash games, I hear he rarely plays them.

Boy that added a lot to the conversation.But he made it because it was +EV, clear and simple.

[JEDI_Master 0]

He made the call from an ISOLATED READ you Baboon Brain!!!+EV would not be a justifiable call for all your chips w/ KJ and still have folding equity of 44 big bets!You Beavis are a freakin MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JEDI_Master 0]

Beavis Wrote: "KJ vs 4 all-in could very likely be a 7:1 dog."

If the 4 all in opponents ahead of you had AA,AK,QQ &KK the worst possible situation your KJs would be a 6-1 dog NOT 7-1 !!!!! (AA= 62.9 % to win / KJs= 10.2% to win) How you gonna keep defending yourself with your broken calculator??? you cant even estimate odds correctly!!! LOL *Then you keep saying that +EV is enough reason to call off all your chips w/ KJ at the start of a tourney when you still have 44+ big bets left! Your a trolling , broken calculator, relentless fooool!*AND THIS FOOL WANTS TO KEEP DEFENDING DAN"S H"S PLAY BY RECITING MATH AND POT ODDS???Once again Beavis you are an IDIOT!