mid pockets in level 1

[WonderfulSplash 0]

I have been playing more NL tourneys lately and have found myself unsure of the correct play in the following situation.I have chips right around what i started with and be in mid to late position facing a large raise (5x or 6x BB) with a middle pair like 77-10,10. Should I be folding these hands to EP raises in the first couple blind levels? If not, what is the best course of action?Thanks for any advice.

[JesseW316 0]

Get a read on the player who raises. If he is loose, call. If he is tight, fold.

[jayboogie 0]

Personally, I call with pocket pairs, unless it gets raised and re-raised, then I'm outta there. I'll call a raise though. Your 50/50 against 2 overs which is usually what the raiser has and you have position. You'll be able to take the pot from AK, AQ most of the time, because they will miss the flop the majority of the time and with position on them, your in really good shape.You will also get paid huge if your opponent happens to have Aces and you flop your set and your against someone who won't laydown big hands. You also have a deep stack at the beginning and can afford to take some risks. My style is to get in there and play pots in the early levels and accumulate chips instead of becoming a shortstack getting blinded out and having to play move in poker during the middle stages and relying on hitting cards or winning coinflips.

[timwakefield 68]

Personally, I call with pocket pairs, unless it gets raised and re-raised, then I'm outta there. I'll call a raise though. Your 50/50 against 2 overs which is usually what the raiser has and you have position. You'll be able to take the pot from AK, AQ most of the time, because they will miss the flop the majority of the time and with position on them, your in really good shape.

Be careful calling a fairly significant raise with a hand like 88. Even if you put your opponent on face cards, you can't possibly know which ones. Since you only called his raise he will most likely bet again, and if j32 is out there you have a tough decision. q 10 6 and you have to fold. I think that early in a tournament you want to play mid pairs pretty slowly, calling when you can get in fairly cheap, because really what you want to do is either have an overpair or hit a set. If somebody is raising for real just muck it.... almost half the deck is a scare card for you if he does have overs, and he could also have a better pair.

[Smasharoo 0]

Hey, what was up with the Knuckleball today, Tim?I expect better from you.

[jayboogie 0]

Personally, I call with pocket pairs, unless it gets raised and re-raised, then I'm outta there. I'll call a raise though. Your 50/50 against 2 overs which is usually what the raiser has and you have position. You'll be able to take the pot from AK, AQ most of the time, because they will miss the flop the majority of the time and with position on them, your in really good shape.

Be careful calling a fairly significant raise with a hand like 88. Even if you put your opponent on face cards, you can't possibly know which ones. Since you only called his raise he will most likely bet again, and if j32 is out there you have a tough decision. q 10 6 and you have to fold. I think that early in a tournament you want to play mid pairs pretty slowly, calling when you can get in fairly cheap, because really what you want to do is either have an overpair or hit a set. If somebody is raising for real just muck it.... almost half the deck is a scare card for you if he does have overs, and he could also have a better pair.

If your in the early stages, your assuming your opponent opens for about 3 times the big blind or so, which won't be all that much of your chipstack, with the implied odds of taking your opponent's entire stack, it's worth it to see a flop if you can play the hand well postflop. Also, postflop play is also about doing the math and not just reading the board. The odds are that if the raiser has 2 overcards and raised with them, they will miss the flop 2/3 of the time meaning, you will be able to take the pot from them most of the time. I play these hands, because I can play it well postflop, I don't recommend everyone do it, but if your strength is postflop, I can't understand why you don't want to see a flop with this hand and position on the raiser and lots of chips to work with.

[timwakefield 68]

If your in the early stages, your assuming your opponent opens for about 3 times the big blind or so, which won't be all that much of your chipstack, with the implied odds of taking your opponent's entire stack, it's worth it to see a flop if you can play the hand well postflop. Also, postflop play is also about doing the math and not just reading the board. The odds are that if the raiser has 2 overcards and raised with them, they will miss the flop 2/3 of the time meaning, you will be able to take the pot from them most of the time. I play these hands, because I can play it well postflop, I don't recommend everyone do it, but if your strength is postflop, I can't understand why you don't want to see a flop with this hand and position on the raiser and lots of chips to work with.

Original post says a bet of 5x or 6x blinds. I think it is better to be more careful not call a bet of say 150 with 88 if blinds are 15/30. q76 falls and raiser bets the pot, what do you do? Yes they have only 1 in 3 to catch the flop, but they can pretend all they like. Love to play if it's cheap (maybe 3 or 4 times bb early on) or if there are other callers, or if the bettor is quite loose. As far as playing well postflop, I don't see how you can determine what exact cards your opponent has...if you hold a mid-pair, the most likely flop is AT LEAST one overcard with no trips for you. Fine line between when to play and when not to, but I would say never play it early if the bettor is making it expensive and you have nothing invested.

[jayboogie 0]

yeah I guess I missed the big raise part, but I find generally if somebody opens for this much, they're usually weak and don't want callers, particularly if they've done it a couple times. If it's somebody that hasn't been raising much and they do this, it's an easy fold obviously. It is some guesswork on the flop, but mathematically, they miss the flop most of the time and you have position. Say they fire out and bet when they miss the flop and they get called by you, what's their next step? Continue betting? I doubt it, they'll usually check-fold the turn. The importance of position in NL is critical and you have it here. I personally hate it when a good player calls my raise unless I have a big pocket pair, because it makes me easily liable to be outplayed considering I'll miss the flop most of the time.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Unless your opponents are mixing up their play, a larger raise from EP signifies that they are trying to discourage action, not encourage it (meaning their hand is good, but not great). it is early in the tourney though, so I can't see them trying to mix up their play. A raise of 5 - 6X the BB is pretty high, so I am thinking their hand isn't very strong. Depending on your personal style of play, as well as your opponent(s), going over the top will probably win your fair share of the hands. it is early though, so if you don't like to gamble at that stage of the game, you can easily fold, having invested nothing into the hand. :wink:

[bdams19 0]

You don't have to worry about it, because snowmen always set (I like to call it frosty's revenge when you set your 88 ), as do 66, 77, and 99. It's just what happens if you have that feeling.

[timwakefield 68]

Unless your opponents are mixing up their play, a larger raise from EP signifies that they are trying to discourage action, not encourage it (meaning their hand is good, but not great). it is early in the tourney though, so I can't see them trying to mix up their play. A raise of 5 - 6X the BB is pretty high, so I am thinking their hand isn't very strong. Depending on your personal style of play, as well as your opponent(s), going over the top will probably win your fair share of the hands. it is early though, so if you don't like to gamble at that stage of the game, you can easily fold, having invested nothing into the hand. :wink:

I think you really have to play them slowly, you don't want to be re-raising with 88 early in a game. I don't see how you can "go over the top" when your opponent raises a fair amount in front of you and you have a mid-pair. You have to think he is 50-50 on you at best, and at worst he has you crushed. "Before the Flop, with any of the small pairs (except Jacks, Tens and Nines)...I'd limp-in. If somebody raised it from an early or middle position...I'd call it. I wouldn't re-raise. I'd almost take a Turn with any small Pair. I'd be trying to turn a Set so I could break somebody." - Doyle BrunsonYeah I know, Doyle isn't necessarily "correct," but I just found that and I thought it backed me up pretty well.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Your missing the point IMO. With a raise of 5-6X the BB, they (usually) don't want you to call (or especially raise), meaning they have a weaker holding. Look at it like this. If you had pocket aces, you would want to maximize your profits, right? So, you raise. But you don't raise too much, because people may fold, so you raise 3 -4 X BB, right?Same with pocket kings. You want action with your kings, but not too much action, as online people like to call with any ace, so once an ace comes on the flop you may get beaten. So, you raise just a bit more with the kings than you would with the aces, maybe 3.5 - 4.5X BB.It's a sliding scale for the pocket pairs, IMO. With strong holdings, the raises are smaller than they are with weaker holdings (unless they are mixing up their play).Therefore, you can either:Fold. Nothing lost. Nothing gained.Call. Then, depending onthe texture of the flop, can play accordingly. Note however that for the most part you will not hit your set, and may have to give up with your medium pocket pair.Raise. More often than not (freerolls don't count), your opponents will fold, or put you all-in. Calling is the worst thing they could do if they had a weaker holding. If they put you all-in, then it is decision time for you. :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

I have been playing more NL tourneys lately and have found myself unsure of the correct play in the following situation.I have chips right around what i started with and be in mid to late position facing a large raise (5x or 6x BB) with a middle pair like 77-10,10. Should I be folding these hands to EP raises in the first couple blind levels? If not, what is the best course of action?Thanks for any advice.

Mid pocket pairs are strong hands, but are not good against one or two opponents who have shown a considerable amount of strength.I say fold.There are two situations you want with 77-TT:1) a lot of limpers or callers after a small raise (the same sitation you would want for small pairs). You are basically looking to spike a set 12% of the time and take down the big multi-way pot. The difference in how you would play these as opposed to small pairs is that you should usually put in a smallish raise to pad the pot a bit and not lose anybody, whereas with anything smaller than 77 you should just call.2) One or two callers who have not shown a lot of strength. This will allow you to be more confident that they don't have bigger pairs, and that if they don't connect with the board your pair still has the chance to be the best hand if you don't improve. This is also the best time to try a big raise and either win the pot right there or get yourself heads up at least if you so choose and conditions are right. Against one opponent, where you have begun as the aggressor, your chances are significantly better.

[timwakefield 68]

Yes, another reason to play mid pairs only when it's cheap is because you want lots of people to see the flop along with you.If you have 77, you don't want to be in a hand with only one other player. You want to be in a hand with 5 other players, because when kj7 falls, it is more likely that somebody has made top pair or two pair and will pay you off. Against 5 people, somebody else probably has a good piece of that flop, but against only one opponent with say AQ, you might not get any action on your trips.

[Rocketwadster 0]

The best help you will ever get in NL tourneys would come from reading Harrington on Hold-em. Part 1 was awesome, I am about 1/3 way through part 2. 8)

[Abbaddabba 0]

Win small, lose big.Those are the two potential outcomes, unless you flop a set. That's assuming he doesnt have an overpair, in which case it's "lose big, lose big", whenever you dont flop your set.