the best nlhe players are...

[Pokerghost2 0]

i heard somewhere that gus hansen made an off hand comment to the effect of this, you could throw everything in the "books" out and play just the opposite, and that would be better when it comes to nlhe tourns. Now i dont know if id go that far but i do believe the very best nlhe players in the world are looser than the avg player, so i decided to make a short list of some traits of the most feared nlhe players and see if most people agree. I think the best are loose, unpredictable, way more aggressive, and tend to "have it" far less. They tend to be credited with being great at reading people, and no doubt some are, but i think more so than that they are just so aggressive that people just tend to let them have it if they didnt really love the flop rather than play an expensive pot. My style of play is pretty tight preflop as i have played limit for years, and i do want to bring about some change towards better nlhe play in tourns. i think i need to see more flops, bluff more, steal blinds more and get my money in sooner when i start getting shortstacked. hopefully ill be able to make a few changes gradually so that when i am fortunate enough to make a final table, i do so as a force chips wise instead of a farce lol. Hope to get some good feedback from some of the better players on here, thanks.

[Patricnz 0]

Flack

[Guest XXEddie]

1. phil hellmuth2. Bill Fillmaff

[Keyz11 0]

my top 5:JuandaCloutierFlackD.N.D.Brunson

[wannabe 0]

Do you people even read the thread... or just the title? He is not asking for players names.. he's asking for characteristics. Loose but controlled aggression IMO is the best and most successful NL strategy... cash or tourney... however, in tourneys.. you have to play according to the blind structure.

[Pokerghost2 0]

i wonder if anyone will actually read my thread? OK ill bite, Ivey, mortenson, Flack, Hanson, Negreanu, Juanda. I am still holding out hope that someone will read the thread and give some feedback tho. its not a "whos the best at" thread.

[bigkg 0]

I think that obviously the player must be very aggressive. Doyle preached it in SS1, and look what he has done. Then there are people like DN and Gus, who play a lot of hands preflop. Some people call this loose and stupid, and say that Gus alwaus gets lucky. This isn't true. DN and Gus both are incredibly talented at making preflop reads, that is why they can play so many hands. One more thing about Gus, he is extremely mathematical.

[Pokerghost2 0]

I think that obviously the player must be very aggressive. Doyle preached it in SS1, and look what he has done. Then there are people like DN and Gus, who play a lot of hands preflop. Some people call this loose and stupid, and say that Gus alwaus gets lucky. This isn't true. DN and Gus both are incredibly talented at making preflop reads, that is why they can play so many hands. One more thing about Gus, he is extremely mathematical.

i was amazed to learn that as well, but gus is frequently willing to take the worst of it pf given he may outplay his opponent later in the hand. One of Gus wildest plays was when he called off antonios all in w 10 8, Antonio incredibly had 77 and gus won the coinflip. No one could believe he made that call.

[gradin123 0]

My style of play is pretty tight preflop as i have played limit for years, and i do want to bring about some change towards better nlhe play in tourns. i think i need to see more flops, bluff more, steal blinds more and get my money in sooner when i start getting shortstacked. hopefully ill be able to make a few changes gradually so that when i am fortunate enough to make a final table, i do so as a force chips wise instead of a farce lol. Hope to get some good feedback from some of the better players on here, thanks.

Tight preflop is your biggest problem. I took a piece of advice of NLHM from Jesus Ferguson that has really helped my game. It's simple really. PUMP THEM OR DUMP THEM! Don't limp into pots preflop in NL. Raise or Fold. Especially if you are first or second into a pot. Late position obviously dictates a different approach. but generally If they aren't good enough to raise with then fold. Showing aggression early will help you steal some pots. But that doesn't necessarily mean you need to see more flops. Actually in NL you should see less flops than limit. But when you do see a flop you should show aggression.Check your stats. Generally your bets and raises % combined should be even to or exceed your call%. If your call% is a lot higher then you are not aggressive enough.The only time I really limp in is with a full table and small pocket pairs.

[Guest XXEddie]

I think that obviously the player must be very aggressive. Doyle preached it in SS1, and look what he has done. Then there are people like DN and Gus, who play a lot of hands preflop. Some people call this loose and stupid, and say that Gus alwaus gets lucky. This isn't true. DN and Gus both are incredibly talented at making preflop reads, that is why they can play so many hands. One more thing about Gus, he is extremely mathematical.

i was amazed to learn that as well, but gus is frequently willing to take the worst of it pf given he may outplay his opponent later in the hand. One of Gus wildest plays was when he called off antonios all in w 10 8, Antonio incredibly had 77 and gus won the coinflip. No one could believe he made that call.

Most people think he made a stupid call and got lucky, but he later said he had antonio on a small pair meaning he was a coinflip, and was getting the right price to call....do i beleive him....eh, id like to see him go through with that read if it was the final table of the WSOP main event, not a silly freeroll

[Pokerghost2 0]

i heard somewhere that gus hansen made an off hand comment to the effect of this, you could throw everything in the "books" out and play just the opposite, and that would be better when it comes to nlhe tourns. Now i dont know if id go that far but i do believe the very best nlhe players in the world are looser than the avg player, so i decided to make a short list of some traits of the most feared nlhe players and see if most people agree. I think the best are loose, unpredictable, way more aggressive, and tend to "have it" far less. They tend to be credited with being great at reading people, and no doubt some are, but i think more so than that they are just so aggressive that people just tend to let them have it if they didnt really love the flop rather than play an expensive pot. My style of play is pretty tight preflop as i have played limit for years, and i do want to bring about some change towards better nlhe play in tourns. i think i need to see more flops, bluff more, steal blinds more and get my money in sooner when i start getting shortstacked. hopefully ill be able to make a few changes gradually so that when i am fortunate enough to make a final table, i do so as a force chips wise instead of a farce lol. Hope to get some good feedback from some of the better players on here, thanks.

Tight preflop is your biggest problem. I took a piece of advice of NLHM from Jesus Ferguson that has really helped my game. It's simple really. PUMP THEM OR DUMP THEM! Don't limp into pots preflop in NL. Raise or Fold. Especially if you are first or second into a pot. Late position obviousyt dictates a different approach. but generally If they aren't good enough to raise with then fold. Showing agression early will help you steal some pots. The only time I really limp in is with a full table and small pocket pairs.

i dont do much limping anyway. did u find that in my post somewhere? I think the strategy in this thread is a bit deeper than ur raise or fold credo. playing position also is obvious and fundamental and i took for granted that the reader understood simple concepts like the value of position. Sometimes, son, calling is a deceptive tool used by great players also. every option is an option with the great players imo.

[dmoneypoker 0]

1- unpredictability2- great reading ability. this is the one thing that sets players apart. you can know all there is to know but if you cant read you wont win a damn thing at NLHE.3- the discipline to get away from hands when they aren't 100% sure they are beat. laying down the best hand sometimes and waiting for a better spot where their skill can give them an edge.4- on the flip side, being willing to gamble. the great NLHE players play to win it all, especially in tournaments. often you will need the guts to call with a big draw and nothing else. like amir once said in a wsop interview- in order to live you have to be willing to die.5- the heart and determination to win and protect their stack at all costs.6- aggression. the great NLHE player bullies his opponents around at the right times and their raises are always feared despite their table image.

[mosesXcore 0]

Danny Nguyen is probably the perfect prototype for a NLHE tournament player.

[dmoneypoker 0]

I admit it, I am a chronic limper. But this is because I often read my opponents very well (I'm talking B&M now).My belief in limping is based on the following:Most hands in NLHE are hit or miss whether it be AK or a pocket pair. You will only hit the flop so many times, so constantly raising will decimate your stack if the cards are running cold that day. On AVERAGE you will flop a set 1 in 12 times and make a pair like half of the time. Raising 12 times with a pocket pair, you will probably not win the money you raised with and lost the other 11 times unless you're willing to bet out at a flop with many overs. Here comes the importance of reading again. Limping with somewhat strong holdings saves you bets. Also if you hit the flop hard someone will have a harder time putting you on the hand since you didn't raise.With that being said I will only raise preflop in nlhe with the big pairs, sometimes AK or AQ depending on how I feel. This changes if there are all short stacks or tight players left to act i will raise with nearly anything to try and win the pot and just call with a bigger pair looking for a re-raise. Gotta switch it up, right?2- I know in SS doyle says he pads his stack winning small pots so he can gamble later on. This works but sadly just isnt my style, I am a home run hitter for the most part.3- if you want to play a mediocre hand and belive in only raising, you will either miss out on playing the hand because the hand isn't worth raising with or you will be called with hands that are better than yours and this is a very bad thing. For example if you raise in MP with a hand like Q-10 suited, KJ or a small pair, you are almost definitely beat since nothing weaker will call you most of the time.Limping may lure some of the weak hands into the pot and may induce a big hand to trap or smooth call, giving you a shot at cracking the hand.This is a little different from the norm. NLHE doesn't have to be a pissing contest or a raise war. You don't have to be so clever and try to outplay people by raising all the time. Saving bets and getting your money in when you know you have the best hand has given me a nice BR.

[gradin123 0]

i think i need to see more flops, .

.

i dont do much limping anyway. did u find that in my post somewhere?.

You can only see more flops if you limp. You can't see a lot of flops and raise consistently. Even the most unpredicatable player like Gus folds alot preflop with full tables. Gus will make a big raise with some hands most people wouldn't like low suited connectors but he still folds a lot preflop. Those folds just don't make TV.

[Pokerghost2 0]

i think i need to see more flops, .

.

i dont do much limping anyway. did u find that in my post somewhere?.

You can only see more flops if you limp. You can't see a lot of flops and raise consistently. Even the most unpredicatable player like Gus folds alot preflop with full tables. Gus will make a big raise with some hands most people wouldn't like low suited connectors but he still folds a lot preflop. Those folds just don't make TV.

you cant take more flops by raising? Mommys calling you. I think its naptime junior.more doesnt mean everytime. this thread is beyond ur current level. When u get a little more experience u may understand it better.

[gradin123 0]

There are many different styles that can be successful. But generally you can't just wiat for big hands IMO. You have to steal some pots. Sometimes position will help you steal pots and other times early aggression will help you steal pots.I am much more willing to call from late position obviously. But bluffing from early position can sometimes be very effective because people don't expect it. If for instance you have J10 suited from early position. IMO, you have to raise with that. Not a huge raise but perhaps 3 times the blinds. Then say you get a couple of callers. The flop comes K36 all different suits. Now if you bet strong from the early postion post flop the other two players will likely fold unless they have a king. See J10 suited is a hand you want to see the flop with but if you should aggression with it early it might help you steal a pot.

[DaBruins 0]

i think i need to see more flops, .

.

i dont do much limping anyway. did u find that in my post somewhere?.

You can only see more flops if you limp. You can't see a lot of flops and raise consistently. Even the most unpredicatable player like Gus folds alot preflop with full tables. Gus will make a big raise with some hands most people wouldn't like low suited connectors but he still folds a lot preflop. Those folds just don't make TV.

you cant take more flops by raising? Mommys calling you. I think its naptime junior.more doesnt mean everytime. this thread is beyond ur current level. When u get a little more experience u may understand it better.

well actually more does mean everytime because you are not citing any other situations. And its pretty obvious that limping will cause you see more flops than raising will.Anyway, i dont know where Gus is coming from because ANY style of poker can be winning style IMO. You just have to play it (very) well and at that point it doesnt matter what style you play, you will win tournaments. So how come Gus thinks looser players would do better in nlhe tournaments? Because tournaments are played with a sort of "isolated long-run" mode of play. Long-run in that it takes a while to weed through all the opponents, but isolated in that you cant play as many tournaments as you can cash games because they are less frequent in nature. Loose play, IMO, works great in this isolated long-run style because if you pull it off well then it enables you to build huge stacks. If its just the very short run, meaning a 10 man sitngo, its not as good IMO because most of the field will dump their chips if you just play solid poker. And in the usual long run, like a career cash games player, different situations demand different styles.

[gradin123 0]

you cant take more flops by raising?

I never said that anywhere. What the hell does that even mean?You ask for advice then mock people who provide it. Obviously you are a master player so why does anyone elses opinion even matter?.

[THIR13EN 0]

I have heard pros talk about Gus and they say he raises like every hand(this is on the final table). If you watch WPT season 2 there is a great commentary with DN and EL(Erik Lindingreen). They talk about how Gus works and some of his strategy. They can't even believe some of the plays he makes. So actually the videos of Gus that don’t make it are just when he is stealing the blinds. I think to be aggressive you need to have some reads on your opponents, you need to have the math skills (which Gus has), if its good enough to call its good enough to raise, re-raise, make semi-bluffs, always wear sun glasses, and get a scary looking card protector.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Your raises become just like limps... people lose respect for your raises, and start giving you loose action, and subsquently building pots worth bluffing for, and seemingly paradoxically, buildig pots that can commit people to losing serious chips. I raise ALL the time, small raises, large raises, lots of raises, on anything that i'm going to play, pretty much.. I sometimes limp, and I'll often call raises, rather than re raise, with trapping hands, but if no one has raised, I am raising.. if I flop a set, or a big draw, I want there to be money in the pot, so I can win somebody's stack

[troutsmart 0]

A no limit player can play tight or loose, and twenty shades in between, but that isn't what is important. Success has little correlation to whether a player is loose or tight, and much more to do with making correct decisions. The greatest players make the greatest decisions.

[THIR13EN 0]

A no limit player can play tight or loose, and twenty shades in between, but that isn't what is important. Success has little correlation to whether a player is loose or tight, and much more to do with making correct decisions. The greatest players make the greatest decisions.

I agree to the effect that it doesn’t matter if they are loose or tight, it does matter though if you are aggressive or tight. I believe the best NL HE tourney player are classified as aggressive players. True there are a hand full that have the "tight" image, but more of the consistent winning players are labeled as aggressive players and will call themselves aggressive. I agree with your last statement though, "The greatest players make the greatest decisions."

[THIR13EN 0]

i heard somewhere that gus hansen made an off hand comment to the effect of this, you could throw everything in the "books" out and play just the opposite, and that would be better when it comes to nlhe tourns. .

DN said that. Well, Gus told DN that and DN said it on the WPT season 2 DVD.

[gradin123 0]

I have heard pros talk about Gus and they say he raises like every hand(this is on the final table). If you watch WPT season 2 there is a great commentary with DN and EL(Erik Lindingreen). They talk about how Gus works and some of his strategy. They can't even believe some of the plays he makes. So actually the videos of Gus that don’t make it are just when he is stealing the blinds. I think to be aggressive you need to have some reads on your opponents, you need to have the math skills (which Gus has), if its good enough to call its good enough to raise, re-raise, make semi-bluffs, always wear sun glasses, and get a scary looking card protector.

He varies his play too. I watched the Final table from the 2003 bellagio five diamond and he played very controlled in that event and folded quite a bit.