bill simmons

[ol'number7 0]

as far as good players in great systems go, i have 2 arguments on overrated: Emmit Smith overrated (played behind greatest O Line in history as opposed to Walter Payton who played on bad teams for many years) and Jerry Rice overrated (played in greatest offenses with great qb/teammates) -- any thoughts on that?

[bigpoppahoggz 0]

Rice was good, overrated....probably..I dont think he was the best ever. I woudl put him as my most productive WR ever maybe..atleast in the ERA I seen..Peter King seems to think some guy from the 40s was more productive but what do we know.Rice would be top 5 recievers of the last 15 years to me, not the best. By Best I mean I look at a 5 year run of greatness for a player. I would have a hard time putting rice at number 1.Emmitt was great.. I dont know great line and all, but Im a bills fan we had a good D, and he just ran over us time and time again, and this was after he was past his line and breaking tackles. Emmit was real real good. It wasnt just his line.Payton was better than Emmitt, but Emmit was defnitely the best back in the last 15 years. (excluding thurman of course) also if he stays healthy...look out for mcgahee..anyone who hasnt had a chance to see this guy play is really missing out. He is thurman reincarnated but better. He is something special. Buffalo's offense is complete junk without him.If Mcgahee goes down in preseason with a knee injury I dont know if the bills can win 4-5 games without him. If he plays the whole season I think we are superbowl contenders. Hes that good.

[RhinestoneCowboy 2]

as a TWolves fan, our 1st round pick sucks -- Mcants has 2 issues -- lousy defense & poor attitude -- sounds like a GREAT pick at #14Simmons will have his draft diary posted sometime today, looking forward to it

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...=simmons/050629

[ol'number7 0]

agreed on Mcgahee -- what are you guys gonna do with Travis Henry? No takers so far...

[dolfan 0]

"As for Brady he sux, end of argument, hes boring he has bad stats, and he isnt even top 20 in the league now. there is backups better than him. "Ok, being a guy that would trade stats for Superbowl victories, I guess we just disagree here, but Brady DOES NOT SUCK! Bad stats? Ok his individual stats aren't great, sure. But they're definitely not bad! Maybe not the 40 TD's, 5,000 yards that fantasy leaguers want but what about this stat (and I'll say it over and over until my fingers can't type it anymore): he was WON 3 SUPERBOWLS AND HE'S ONLY 27!! He could never win another Superbowl and still have 3 more than some of the all time great QB's. I agree, a lot of credit has to go the system he played under (much like Montana and the west coast offense). But to say Brady sucks is just hard for me to understand. I don't intend for this to be a personal attack and I'm not flaming you or anything, but which backups in the league would you rate ahead of Brady?

[bigpoppahoggz 0]

I think we are going to move Henry for a 3rd in next years draft with either Tennesee or most likely Jacksonville.I even wouldnt be surprised if we caved and moved him for a 4th.Bottom line Henry will not be a Bill this season, we know its too big of a headache. PErsonally I can not blame Henry, he put his career on the line time and time again playing with broken bones in his leg and thumb and he gets rewarded with them drafting Mcgahee. On the other hand you cant fault the bills, they got a potential hall of famer at 21 overall.As for Brady and backups I would rather have. In no particular ordersome of these are free agents Id rather have.Chris chandlerRich GannonJeff GarciaDrew Henson...started over him at michigan I dont see why he cant nowBrad JohnsonJohn KitnaTommy MAddoxMike McmahonJesse Palmer....just cause hes the bachelorPhilip Rivers...

[pokepoke1967 0]

You make it sound like Manning has only struggled against the Pats. LMAO. The Jets were an alltime great defense when the Colts laid an egg against them right? How bout playoff losses to Miami and the Titans? You run off the names of 49's like they played w/ Montana the whole time or like they had more tallent on O. surrounding him than Manning does. Let me break it to you: Manning will never win a S.B. And it's not a coincidence! The 49's were not only winning Superbowls they were beating the likes of the Giants and Redskins during that time period. Marino dominated statistically in a far weaker conference and in a division that featured the Pats, Colts, and Jets when they were 3 of the worst teams in the league year after year after year. Dispute any of these facts? Brady can tear up the Colts D. and who can't. You're right about that duh! But you act like he hasn't come up big against other tough teams: BS! There are other Quarterbacks that obviously can make plays agianst the toughest teams (i.e. Farve, Elway, and others), and then there are guys that can blow out the alsorans, but that didn't, haven't, and never will beat the best of their generation.

[dolfan 0]

Ok, the one guy on that list I'll agree with is Phillip Rivers...just because he's young and we don't really know how good he'll be.I guess it just comes down to stats vs. wins. I was a Marino fan all my life and I defended him against all comers but I got sick of bragging about all his records when people would respond with the typical, "How many Superbowls did he win?" Stats are great and I'm sure it's awesome to see your name over and over again in the record books, but I'd take a SB victory over holding individual records.And just to get the post back on track, during the NBA Playoffs Simmons posed a very good question which is pretty much the same thing here:Would you rather be somebody like Charles Barkley or Karl Malone who will be remembered as one of the all time greats, with awesome numbers, and TONS of money but NO RINGS...or somebody like Robert Horry who will be remembered for nothing other than playoff heroics. Oh yeah, Horry has 6 rings and quite a bit of money himself...So in that example substitute Dan Marino in for Barkley or Malone, and substitute Tom Brady in for Horry. Who do you take?

[bigpoppahoggz 0]

well Id take marinos career but Bradys girlfriends.career wise I take marino anyday..Montana and manning both had great offenses around them, but its a different era..if you put montanas san fran teams from 84-89 in todays era he would lose 60% of his starters because of the salary cap then lets see him win..you cant compare different eras...the cap changes everything.just like if u put bradys team in the 80s they would get destroyed..they really are not that good..they are just the luckiest team of all time. good management, good coach, lucky calls at the right time, bunch of average suckers who get blindfolded and led overa cliff to believe its more important to win than it is to make money..thats just silly...its alla bout the money and should always be

[CaneBrain 95]

You make it sound like Manning has only struggled against the Pats. LMAO. The Jets were an alltime great defense when the Colts laid an egg against them right? How bout playoff losses to Miami and the Titans? You run off the names of 49's like they played w/ Montana the whole time or like they had more tallent on O. surrounding him than Manning does. Let me break it to you: Manning will never win a S.B. And it's not a coincidence! The 49's were not only winning Superbowls they were beating the likes of the Giants and Redskins during that time period. Marino dominated statistically in a far weaker conference and in a division that featured the Pats, Colts, and Jets when they were 3 of the worst teams in the league year after year after year. Dispute any of these facts? Brady can tear up the Colts D. and who can't. You're right about that duh! But you act like he hasn't come up big against other tough teams: BS! There are other Quarterbacks that obviously can make plays agianst the toughest teams (i.e. Farve, Elway, and others), and then there are guys that can blow out the alsorans, but that didn't, haven't, and never will beat the best of their generation.

Everyone I mentioned but Haley was present for at least 3 of Montana's 4 super bowls. The colts were a horrible team when they lost to the titans and dolphins. It was manning and harrison and james....and nothing else. Oh and that dolphins loss? I was THERE. Lamar Smith ran for over 200 yards in that game. I suppose Manning should have played linebacker to slow him down right? Or when the Jets scored 41 pts he should have been making stops right? I admit he laid a total egg in the jets game....but I dont think one game is always indicative of a career. All you talk about are his losses....what about when he just about singlehandedly beat the chiefs by leading his team to a score on every possession? Or the Broncos? Neither of those teams had defenses to write home about...but manning made them look horrible and in the case of the KC game was able to get a win even though his own D allowed the Chiefs to score at will.As I stated before you mentioning Favre makes your argument even more absurd. Oh and people used to say the same things about Elway until he won two super bowls at the end of his career. I guess he just figured out how to make those tough plays against good teams the last two years of his career.I will dispute most of those facts since you asked. The Jets made the playoffs several times during marino's prime....and the Pats were also pretty darn good between 85-87 including their first super bowl appearance in that time span. The Colts always stunk then yes. Of course, the dolphins had to play the Bills (a team you oh so conveniently left off that list) during much of Marino's prime and alllllll they did was dominate a conference like no one EVER has before with their 4 straight super bowl appearacnes. But hey you said they are facts so they must be true right?Oh and if you recall I never slammed Brady ever. I realize he has come up big time and again. My point was his team has always been better than Manning's team. Just like Jim Kelly's team was always better than Marino's team. Just like John elway never got over that hump until terrell davis started rushing for 1500 yds+ a season for Denver. Your ignorance is appalling.

[ol'number7 0]

100% accurate on the Terrell Davis comment

[CaneBrain 95]

100% accurate on the Terrell Davis comment

I know its like enough already. Quarterbacks dont win super bowls on their own!!! GOD!!! Brady has not won 3 super bowls. The Patriots have. Was Brady a key ingredient in their success? Absolutely! So were Seymour, bruschi, law, troy brown whoever else.The Real MVPs of the Pats are Scott Pioli and bill Belichek who between the two of them have made all the right moves and pushed all the right buttons (Romeo Crennel and C. Weis were also huge....the talent on the patriots O-Line is really below par and yet Weis devised a system that masks their deficiencies (i.e. lots of quick timing passing plays))Remember, I am not saying Brady or Montana are BAD. They are great! Its just I dont buy that they have something Marino didnt or Manning or Elway until his last two year. Put Marino on those niners teams and they win super bowls too.

[dolfan 0]

Agreed on the Pats/Brady/Pioli/Belichek argument. I just refuse to stand by and be told that Brady sucks. One of the best ever? Probably not. Sucks? DEFINITELY NOT.

[ol'number7 0]

John Elway.I think hes the best QB ever, but rarely does he get mentioned with Marino, , graham, tarkenten, manning, Montana( who just had a great system and actually sucks, he didnt even start when he was at notre dame)People forget how good Elway was..he took the broncos to 3 striaght superbowls without a single pro bowler with him on offense. he truly was a one man machine, he was amazing.brady is awful.( see montana, as he too couldnt even start at michigan)If the NFL had a redraft right now, brady would be the bust of the draft if he ended up in a new system.  I would have a hard time drafting brady in the top 15 in the league if I had to pick a starting QB for my team.  but really Do none of you remember the simmons vengeance scale..cmon greatest article everIm also gonna win the negreanu open tonite

Quick question -- how do you put Otto Graham on this list? How did he get mentioned? The guy wore a potato skin for a helmut for Christ's sakesee you at the game tonight

[CaneBrain 95]

Agreed on the Pats/Brady/Pioli/Belichek argument.  I just refuse to stand by and be told that Brady sucks.  One of the best ever? Probably not.  Sucks? DEFINITELY NOT.

Yeah I dont know where pokepoke got the idea I said that from....Brady is a great QB. If there was a league wide redraft of all players I would probably take him #2. But Manning would be #1.i just dont think you can say Brady won 3 super bowls. The Patriots did. I dont think Brady should have won the Super Bowl MVP all 3 years either....but whatever. He is great no doubt about it.

[dolfan 0]

Yeah, most definitely it was the whole team that won the titles, not Brady by himself. And he wasn't the MVP each year. Deion Branch won it last year. But it seems that we agree so there's no point to this post really. Sorry. I think we've covered this enough, so anyhoo...

[CaneBrain 95]

Yeah, most definitely it was the whole team that won the titles, not Brady by himself.  And he wasn't the MVP each year.  Deion Branch won it last year.  But it seems that we agree so there's no point to this post really.  Sorry.  I think we've covered this enough, so anyhoo...

oh yeah Deion Branch....doh!