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Insecure much?I agree you aren't likely on my level, at least when it comes to deep analysis of hands. In the online world which you are neck-deep in, you make your living by making standard plays wit

Alright, I've caught up (this is a lie: I skimmed too much of the last 13 pages and not enough in-depth reading).I decided to make a full-fledged mathematical analysis of the hand. It's long and I ha

sometimes we must tear down so that we may rebuild.

WHAT DO WE ACCOMPLISH BY C/R'ing?! OUR HAND IS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME AS 72o WHEN WE DO THAT! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ANYTHING?!??!?!! HOW IS IT A WAY OF POT CONTROLLING WHEN WE C/R...B/C YOU JUST SAID IT AGAIN!!!!!JESUS YOU ARE SOOO ****ING STUPID W/ YOUR LOGIC IN THIS HAND AND WILL NEVER GET BETTER AT POKER AND THIS IS WHY POKER IS STILL A GREAT GAME TO MAKE $ IN!!!!!!GOD THIS IS SOOOO TILTINGGGGG

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LOL because the flop and turn are two completely different streets. We check to him, he's going to fire with a lot of hands there. But when that turn hits his range becomes incredibly limited, especially with his bet sizing. Yeah, we are check/calling the flop because we think he has bluffs in his range. But once that turn hits and he fires a larger bet his range becomes very limited. Just because we c/c the flop doesn't mean it's OMG WE HAVE TO GO WITH THIS HAND TILL THE END. Plans change on each street.

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Lucero, of course there is a chance he is bluffing, semi or otherwise since the laws of physics and probability state that he is allowed to do so. You have to ask yourself what is the likelihood of him bluffing here. You said these players were pretty solid, straightforward players. These sorts of players typically do not put in most of their stacks on a bluff turn at this stage in the tournament. Not knowing the player you spoke about and going simply on the hand description, I would say there is less than a 10% chance he is bluffing in that spot. Its just a horrible spot to bluff unless he thinks you have a hand like QQ or KK. There's little reason to believe you have a hand like that as opposed to a big A, so again, its a really bad spot for him to be bluffing.TrueAce... I like to think I am a farly logical thinker and have a good grasp of the English language, but I really don't understand much of what you are saying. You use a lot of words, but they don't seem to have much bearing on what I actually said or on what is going on in this hand. I believe I have made a good argument for why a check-raise is a better move on the flop than check-call. If anyone would like to argue against that is some logical, intelligible manner, I would welcome their thoughts. For the record, I am trying to get better at poker (what poker player isn't?), and I happen to think that a "let's close our eyes and hope for the best" outlook in a tournament situation as was presented in this thread is not the way to go.
Alright, how does villain have QQ/KK here? please enlighten me. Second bold...seems fairly logical.
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donk... If a bluff is defined as representing a stronger hand than you have.. how is c/r this flop not a bluff? And will bluffs not sometimes cause marignal hands to fold, or at least slow down? Isn't that precisely what we want to happen in this hand.... get to the river or get out of the hand as cheaply as possible? Check-calling the flop makes it more likely we make a mistake on the turn, which is exactly what happened.I'm also surprised you would be so upset at being jammed on. Is folding when you are obviously way behind such a travesty?As for "deciding on the turn", here's a question for you... is there a single card in the deck, with the possible exception of one of the 3 10s, which you REALLY want to see on the turn? My answer is no. So, if the turn has very little chance of helping us, how are we in a better position to "decide" on that street, particularly out of position?Like I said in a previous post, I would rather risk an extra 4K in this situation and know I am making a good fold to a flop shove or big turn bet, than save that 4K on the flop and either make a bad decision for my tournament life or wonder if I just got the pot stolen from me.

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LOL because the flop and turn are two completely different streets. We check to him, he's going to fire with a lot of hands there. But when that turn hits his range becomes incredibly limited, especially with his bet sizing.Yeah, we are check/calling the flop because we think he has bluffs in his range. But once that turn hits and he fires a larger bet his range becomes very limited. Just because we c/c the flop doesn't mean it's OMG WE HAVE TO GO WITH THIS HAND TILL THE END. Plans change on each street.
so, now it seems you are advocating a fold on the turn (I thought you said you are never folding, but maybe I'm wrong). Anyhow, had the villain had one of those other marginal hands that had us beat (AJ/AQ), or if theyhad a drawing hand, don't you think it highly likely they would check behind on the turn after you just check-raised them on the flop? I happen to think so. And wouldn't it have been nice to see that river and try to catch a diamond for 4K instead of a minimm of 12K, or as it turns out, all of our chips.
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Alright, how does villain have QQ/KK here? please enlighten me.
TrueAce, you have reading comprehension problems. I am not so callous to make fun of you for that, but if you continue to deride me while displaying these reading comprehension problems, I may be forced to. Please put the alcoholic beverage down and re-read my post... slowly. Maybe have someone in the room help you out. To give you a hint.. no one has QQ/KK in this hand.
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but....by c/r'ing, we aren't seeing it for 4k. just saying
obviously I was referring to the additional 4K a c/r would require on top of the check call. My position is I'm never putting any more chips in the pot on the turn and in many cases, won't have to.
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ok...so let me see this logic...We would rather put in 8k into this pot and then make a decision on the turn, instead of just putting in 4k and making a decision on the turn? yupp, great ****ing logic. any other amazing advice you have? please....enlighten me.

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so, now it seems you are advocating a fold on the turn (I thought you said you are never folding, but maybe I'm wrong). Anyhow, had the villain had one of those other marginal hands that had us beat (AJ/AQ), or if theyhad a drawing hand, don't you think it highly likely they would check behind on the turn after you just check-raised them on the flop? I happen to think so. And wouldn't it have been nice to see that river and try to catch a diamond for 4K instead of a minimm of 12K, or as it turns out, all of our chips.
LOL you're saying this under the assumption that his range on the flop is limited to these hands, which they clearly aren't. His range may be made up of those hands, along with sets, 2 pair, and of course bluffs. The fact that his range is made up of far more hands besides aj, aq and draws means c/r is the worst option. You are basing your logic on assumptions of what you WANT the player to do on the flop, turn and river, not what they are going to do.And yeah, I said in the beginning we should never be folding. But I didn't examine the size of the pot on the turn relative to stack sizes. Nor had I pokerstoved the ranges prior to answering. I don't see how this relates to c/ring the flop being completely awful.Straight foward players aren't double barreling on that board nor betting that amount on the turn unless they have very good holdings. Plans can change between the flop and turn. If we bet the flop, then I think CRAI on the turn is by far the best option since it maximizes our equity.
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donk, I think you and i have the same philosphy. The only difference is, you think it is unlikely he will 2-barrel bluff this pot. I tend to agree (though it seems to be what trueace is counting on), but I believe my c/r on the flop pretty much guarantees he won't and it also introduces some fold equity. A check/call just makes our turn decision that much harder since we haven't represented much strength and the villain could be comfortable value betting the turn with lots of hands that have us beat.. and thus preventing us from seeing that all-important river.

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ok...so let me see this logic...We would rather put in 8k into this pot and then make a decision on the turn, instead of just putting in 4k and making a decision on the turn?yupp, great ****ing logic. any other amazing advice you have? please....enlighten me.
I'd rather put in 8k and make an easy decision that costs me nothing more, than put in 4K that makes my decision a lot harder and could cost my tournament life. Consider yourself enlightened, and at the rate your chugging tonight, that's no small feat.
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donk, I think you and i have the same philosphy. The only difference is, you think it is unlikely he will 2-barrel bluff this pot. I tend to agree (though it seems to be what trueace is counting on), but I believe my c/r on the flop pretty much guarantees he won't and it also introduces some fold equity. A check/call just makes our turn decision that much harder since we haven't represented much strength and the villain could be comfortable value betting the turn with lots of hands that have us beat.. and thus preventing us from seeing that all-important river.
If he has a hand that has a beat then we shouldn't seeing a river in the first place unless we are getting the right price (which we aren't).You are basing your entire logic that the hand is going to play out the way you want it to. You think you're going to c/r the flop and he'll flat, which makes the hand simpler but it really doesn't. Flatting isn't his only option, he could fold, which means we missed value by c/ring, or he could jam, which means we are behind 100% of the time but we can't fold because that would essentially mean we are turning A10 on an ace high flop into a bluff. Yeah, sure, it guarantees the villain won't two barrel in this spot, but if we believe he is bluffing then we are losing a ton of value by c/ring because he's just going to fold all of his bluffs. You want to c/r this flop because you think he will slow down with aj or aq, which I think is incredibly flawed because if you check the turn I think villain bets those hands quite often. Like I said, you think this hand is going to play out perfectly in your mind where if you c/r the villain will slow down with aj or aq and you lose a smaller pot. But, I think it's stupid to c/r the flop then check the turn, you should be betting with the intention of getting in which is also silly since we are never ahead in that spot. But, that's only one scenario of many that could happen.You can't examine this hand from one perspective. You have to take into account all ranges, all possible options. a check/call, check/decide line is fine. So what if we check/call the flop and check/fold the turn. Yeah, we picked up a myriad of outs on the turn, but if we aren't getting the price to call then we can't call, plain and simple.
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Honestly, you should only c/r this flop if you think villain will call with worse. If that's the case, you are essentially deeming his range to only be draws, and weaker aces. Which the only weaker ace that might be in his range is a8, and that's a pretty big stretch.What are you going to do if you c/r the flop and a club falls on the turn? c/f? then why the hell did you c/r in the first place? You bloated a pot you didn't need to bloat when you could have gotten away from the hand cheaply. You didn't find out anymore information than you would have if you c/c. And you can't say, "well then why are you check/calling the flop if you're just going to check/fold the turn." That's flawed thinking. We base our decisions off our reads. These reads come from a number things, including player tendencies, bet sizing, timing tells, etc. On the flop, there is a wide range of hands villain could be betting, so while it's narrowed from preflop, it's still fairly wide which makes c/c better. Betting is also decent in this spot. On the turn, we can limit the villains range sooooooooooooooo much just based on his bet sizing. He is never folding to an all in with that sizing. So it becomes a numbers game. If we are getting the right price to hit our draw or even hit two pair then we go with it, if not, you fold and move on to the next hand.It's not a bad thing to check/call, then check/fold against some villains. These players are pretty straight forward, they aren't going to fire two streets into you unless they're decent and have some concept of your range, or if their batshit crazy. We know they aren't the latter, and judging by his bet sizing on the turn he probably isn't the former either.

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Had a nice post ready to go last night and my page expired!! It seems as if donk has taken the lead here and no one is taking him to task anymore. One of the great aspects of this poker game is that we can take the same/similar hands and play them differently based on the other factors ... position, opponent image, tournament standings, stack size .. et. The ability to consider all of those options in a short period of time, without giving off tells, is an even greater aspect of the game that draws me to it. Obviously the passion for the game comes out in our posts with the name calling and such, thus showing some personality.We have all been concerned with what to do with the Flop bet facing us ... I advocated just calling and more than likely folding on the Turn, even though we picked up some nuts outs, due to the size of the bet placed by a straight forward opponent. This leaves us with 20bb, which is a workable stack at this stage of the tournament.I also felt if were to consider a check-raise that we were automatically committed to our stack going in so why not just shove, which could be the only way to get some better hands to fold. This apparently isnt the case as some of us are willing to go to the next hand with as little as 14bb ... I am not really buying into that unless when compared to other stacks at the table it actually could push people off hands for 'steals' pre-Flop. I would consider a 20bb stack much more steal ready than 14bb. I dont have enough tournament experience with these short stacks and that is why I enjoy taking in your comments.The other issue with the check raise is we lose value to hands we are ahead of at the time. I have been called-out on this site for placing bets 'to see where we are at' and although I will still continue to use that phrase ... I am not advocating this idea with such a shallow stack. Being OOP AND committing myself to the pot even if I am behind, then I would shove before I raise here, but I dont think I would choose either of these lines very often.One issue that hasn't come up much is why didnt we lead-out on the Flop? Is that a better play as we did open pre-Flop and we are looking at a favorable Flop for our hand? With us now knowing the opponents holdings this would have been bad news and we would have put in 2 more bets before our opponent raised us on the Turn with the double flush draw out there. Cant imagine our opponent raising on the Flop with a set here. What do we do after we bet 3-4K on Flop and 6-8K on Turn and facing a shove?I would like to see some comments on both the 'value' of a 14bb stack (vr 20bb, or are they the same) and whether or not we can get away from our hand if we lead out on the Flop and Turn and are now faced with a shove.

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Re donk: First off, at no point have I claimed the check/call on the flop was a "bad play", at least to my knowledge. I just think the check raise is better. And obviously, check/fold the turn is probably the best move. I'll get to the remaining stack size in a bit in response to answer20’s post. But first, to your points. I am not assuming anything when I c/r the flop as far as what the villain will do. I think it is fairly likely that the villain bet the flop pretty weak, but of course, there is the chance he is strong. The purpose of the c/r is to rule out that he is really strong, because if he were, he would in all likelihood shove over our c/r here. Result.. we get away from a bad spot losing 8K. Now, if he calls, here’s what happens. First off, I disagree with your assertion that a check on the turn would likely elicit another bet from AJ/AQ. If the villain were a maniac, then all bets are off and he could do anything. But all evidence suggests he is a straightforward player. Our c/r is going to make him think we are committed to the pot. There is very little chance he will bluff here. There is very little chance he will value bet anything less than A/K since we could have flopped lots of hands that have him beat and will call with big draws as well. There’s just no reason for him to bet a marginal hand here and doing so is a very risky play. So I think the c/r on the flop induces a ck/ck on the turn a large percentage of the time. This would have been even more the case if a club hit the turn because now he has to worry about us either already having a flush, or having even more outs on the river with a big club in our hand. So, as it stood, my feeling is, the villain will only bet when he is quite strong. So it just comes down to deciding whether chasing our flush draw is worth it. For 12K or whatever the villain is likely to bet here, I don’t think it is.I think the mistake, for lack of a better word, in your analysis, is you are playing this hand as if it is earlier in the tournament and we have lots of chips to play around with. In those situations, it’s alright (or at least more alright) to have a “let’s call and see what happens next” strategy. You can play small ball. You can go into turns and rivers not quite sure where you’re at because the risk of ruin, or consequences of you being wrong or unlucky are relatively small. In this situation, however, you can’t afford to allow the villain to control the pot and the action. There’s just too many ways they can cause you to lose a hand you might have won, or cause you to make a mistake which are both devastating results at this point in the tournament. The c/r obviously isn’t pure small ball and pot control, but I think it does clarify your opponents holdings to a great degree and it also is more likely to keep the pot small on the turn.Now, of course, the way this hand played out is a good example of why A10 suited is a hard hand to play in any situation, but with stacks this short especially. By putting in a standard pre-flop raise in an attempt to steal with this hand, you’re really hoping for a flushy flop. When you don’t get one, all sorts of bad things can happen. There’s a case to be made that a bigger raise, even perhaps an All-in pre-flop would have been better. Riskier, certainly, but less prone to mistakes after the flop J. In this case, you actually wouldn’t mind seeing 99 across the table… until the flop that is.Re: Answer20, as far as stack sizes are concerned… it obviously depends on the blind sizes, ante sizes and structure. I believe there are various schools of thought which typically settle around 10-15 BB being the shove/fold threshold. 20BB or 25BB are not quite there yet, but the thing is, a single hand played and lost pretty much puts you there. That’s why this is a precarious position to be in as well. In my analysis, the aggressive c/r on the flop could leave me with only ~15BB if I ran into big hand and had to fold, as opposed to the ~19BB I would be left with in a check/call/fold scenario. In my mind there’s not enough of a difference in these stack sized to warrant shying away from the more aggressive strategy.As to some of your other points… In my mind, the c/r doesn’t commit you to the pot, but it is intended to make your opponent think you are and play accordingly. The fact that several of you think you are committing to the pot makes me believe this supposition of what your opponent would think is right on.Also, a lead out on the flop is pretty standard, and is therefore not what I would consider a bad play. The problem with it here, at lease compared to other options, is that it opens the door for your opponent to put a lot of heat on you right away when you are holding a marginal hand. If the opponent shoves in the face of your c/r, you know you are beat, so a fold is easy. If the opponent shoves or puts in a big raise in the face of your standard lead out, you really have no idea what to do. Of course, a fold is likely the smartest choice, but it certainly isn’t an easy decision and you could be making a big mistake whatever you choose. It should be clear from my posts that I prefer to make easy decisions. A flop check makes the hand easier to play.As for your last question, I don’t see a tremendous amount of difference between 14BB or 20BB. A standard hand played where you think you are ahead, but are not sure, and therefore bet the flop/turn looking to check/call the river is going to cost you at least 10-15BB. That makes playing a hand this way when you only start out with 20-25BB really precarious.

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You're just an idiot that has no desire to open your mind at all. You're completely closed minded about this hand. Donk and I have to come to terms w the fact that you will never get better and just come to terms w that

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I'm glad you have come to terms with something, trueace. That's the first step to recovery. Now you just have to work on those other deamons.BTW, you keep mentioning donk as if you're simpatico. I assume donk is perfectly capable of posting his own opinions without having you usurp his thoughts.

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