Roll the Bones 74 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Don't know if anyone seen this or have been keeping up with it. Remember a while back when some athiests got in trouble for not attending an evangelical concert they were putting on and got punished at Ft Bragg?Well, an athiest has been working ever since putting on a similar show for athiests with speakers and bands, SpeakersDan Barker Ed Brayton Richard Dawkins Margaret Downey Jen McCreight Dale McGowan Hemant Mehta Al Stefanelli Todd Stiefel Mikey Weinstein Michael Werner Music Baba Brinkman Jeffrey Lewis Spoonboy Words Such As Burn Roy Zimmerman Here's the websitehttp://rockbeyondbelief.com/category/rock-beyond-belief/He was assured up front that the army wouldn't discriminate if they wanted to hold the event. He went crazy organizing it and then well, here's the timeline,September 25th, 2010: Rock the Fort -- An Evangelical Christian membership drive gets a massive amount of support and a ringing endorsement from the Fort Bragg hosts and co-sponsors. This event was heavily contested and was only not canceled because “Fort Bragg would be willing and able to provide similar levels of support to comparable events…”September 26th, 2010: Rock Beyond Belief starts planning to take them up on this offer of a similar level of support. Though we are decidedly not doing a membership drive, and we are also not putting on an ‘anti-christian’ or ‘anti-religion’ or ‘anti-anything’ festival. We are simply raising tolerance and awareness for the non-theist segment of the military community.Many months go by, and nearly every necessary signature is on the RBB submission packet. Even the rigorous month-long legal review found that they were bound by regulations to give us the exact same treatment, and that they would support Rock Beyond Belief.March 1st, 2011: The final signature we needed was the Garrison Commander. He placed last minute crippling restrictions on our event that forced us to cancel, against the legal recommendations from his own legal staff.March 2nd, 2011: I am permitted to speak to the Garrison Commander and present him my rebuttal. I get 15 minutes, and nearly the whole time was spent arguing about how many people would show up to a Richard Dawkins speech. His staff contends that only a few hundred would possibly be interested (a claim they embarrassingly repeated to giggling reporters later), which makes the tiny venue that was forced on us justifiable. I didn’t even get a chance to talk about the many other grievances that I had with his decision letter.March 4th, 2011: It is clear that our rebuttal fell on deaf ears. I delivered a response to his decision letter, and the story went out on the AP and the local papers here. Over the next few days we receive a massive amount of support from atheists, humanists, agnostics, even countless Christians reached across the aisle in sympathy.March 8th, 2011: The public response has been overwhelmingly negative towards the Garrison Commander’s decision. He calls a press conference at 3PM with two reporters. I must admit a bit of jealousy because those journalists got 30-45 minutes of his time (I asked them about this when they contacted me for comment).Which brings us up to date. Now the phone calls and emails continue to roll in from supporters, fellow service-members, and many journalists. I apologize for the tardiness that I might have in replying, but I’m sure you understand. (Please put ‘time sensitive’ or ‘journalist on a deadline’ etc in the subject line of your email if it can’t wait.)So now I’m taking our case to the air waves (literally). The opportunity to interact with the ‘talk radio’ crowd was certainly unique, and I’d do it again for sure. I think I started out a little tense, but I think it quickly started going my way. What do you guys think? How did I do?-----------------So he was 99.99% done organizing the event and had put alot of time and money and effort into it, fully complied with legal and every single rule and then the Garrison Commander at the last minute wouldn't sign off and didn't even really offer up a reason.http://rockbeyondbelief.com/2011/03/04/las...d-us-to-cancel/So now they are organizing a telethon, http://rockbeyondbelief.com/2011/03/11/24-...-save-the-date/But this was a letter sent to the guy organizing the event today.umm next post. Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 (Anonymous guest post)By Justin Griffith, on March 12th, 2011Anonymous guest post from a foxhole atheist disgusted with the climate of discrimination he faces. This article was making the rounds on the web, and I think it is eye-opening. (No, this is not me ghost-writing. Several people alerted me to it.) I don’t want atheists to drop out of the military, or to avoid joining. We need more of you to stand up with us! But it is entirely understandable why this author has reached that conclusion.By anonymous; republished with permission.If you are a non-religious person considering a career in the U.S. Army, prepare to be assaulted by unwanted religious propaganda and proselytizing.Prepare to be forced to swear an oath “So help me God” even though you are not legally required to.Prepare to be treated with suspicion for placing the word “Atheist” on your military ID tags.Prepare to repeatedly hear the common Christian lie “There are no atheists in foxholes” (perhaps while you find yourself in one).Prepare to be forced to attend religious worship services, and sometimes forced to bow your head with the rest of the flock for the sake of “uniformity”.Prepare to have your “spiritual fitness” tested with loaded questions that favor religion over non-religion.Prepare to be forced into “remedial” training designed to make you more spiritual with repeated suggestions to pray, pray, pray, and pray some more.Prepare to be forced to visit the chaplains, who will probablypreach their religion at you against your will (and get paid to do it).Prepare to have your children stalked by religious predators sanctioned (and paid) by the Army to evangelize your unchurched hell-spawn (source).Prepare to clean toilets while your buddies enjoy tax-funded rock concerts based on their faith (source).Prepare to watch religious groups claim millions of government dollars for religious entertainment while secular groups are denied a single red cent.Prepare to have your complaints dismissed and ignored, your paperwork “lost”, and your legal rights violated at every turn.In short, find another job. And if you’re already in, follow my lead and get out. If you’ve avoided these things so far, you’re lucky: the threat of the Christian Taliban is rapidly growing. We are no longer welcome in their Christian Army. I used to believe in the honor of this institution, but that day has passed.This Army has declared war on its own soldiers. The only thing we can do is retreat from this corrupt institution before they start locking us in cages.Last year, the Army spent over $50,000 to host and co-sponsor a Christian rock concert called Rock the Fort with the explicit goal of proselytizing and converting soldiers and civilians to Christianity. It isn’t hard to make a Constitutional argument that such sponsorship clearly represents an impermissible entanglement between church and state, but the Army squelched complaints with a half-hearted promise to give similar support to any other group.Enter Army Sergeant Justin Griffith, atheist sponsor of a similar (but non-Christian) event, Rock Beyond Belief. I should say, “the late” Rock Beyond Belief, because RBB is dead. The Army killed it. This week, Sergeant Griffith was forced to cancel RBB because the Army’s “similar level of support” meant a 0:50000 funding ratio and an inferior venue vastly inadequate for the expected turn-out.The message is clear: the Army deems non-Christians as unworthy of comparable funding and support. Can Sergeant Griffith prompt the Army to correct this egregious offense by filing an Equal Opportunity complaint? Probably not. As one Equal Opportunity Sergeant Major declared, “since atheism is not a religion, atheists are not protected by the regulation and it is acceptable for officers and chaplains to disparage their own soldiers.” (source)Sergeant Griffith is also known for publicly exposing the Army’s “Spiritual Fitness Test“, a blatantly unconstitutional portion of the Army’s Soldier Fitness Tracker. This test is a direct violation of Article VI paragraph 3 of the U.S. Constitution which explicitly demands that “[N]o religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”It is difficult to conceive of an interpretation of those words which permits the Army to require a religious test as a qualification to be a soldier, and yet they do. All soldiers are required to complete this assessment annually, and until recently they were required to complete remedial “spiritual fitness” training if they were found to be unfit.The Army, however, publicly denies that soldiers were forced to complete spiritual fitness training (nevermind the testimony of every atheist soldier: YES WE HAVE). In a Truthout article dated 05 January 2011, the director of the Spiritual Fitness Program, Brig. Gen. Rhonda Cornum, told Truthout, “Spiritual training is entirely optional, unlike the other domains. Every time you say the S-P-I-R word you’re going to get sued. So that part is not mandatory.”At the time, Brig. Gen. Cornum was either lying or unfamiliar with the program she directs. A month later the Army quietly and subversively issued a change (ALARACT 045/2011) that retroactively made official policy reflect Brig. Gen. Cornum’s remarks. Under the new policy, the spiritual fitness training modules are supposed to be voluntary; HOWEVER, the Army’s GAT/SFT/CSF/CRM websites still have not been updated to reflect this new policy nearly a month later, and still tell soldiers that spiritual fitness training is mandatory if they fail that portion of the test. To soldiers who haven’t seen this obscure change-in-policy, the outdated orders on the Army websites still seem to be in effect.One mechanism for self-defense in this religiously hostile environment is to file a request for religious accommodation. These requests can cover anything from getting special holidays off to (in the case of non-religious soldiers) protecting oneself from mandatory participation in religious worship and spiritual fitness training. If a request is denied, the soldier can file an appeal to the Deputy Chief of Staff, G-1 which according to Army Regulation 600-20 must be answered within 60 days.Two months ago, Army Sergeant Dustin Chalker filed such an appeal. Today, Sergeant Chalker reports, “The Army’s deadline to answer my appeal has come and gone without a word. No surprise there. I know firsthand that I shouldn’t expect the Army to follow its own regulations.”This isn’t Sergeant Chalker’s first rodeo. From 2008 to 2009 he spearheaded a lawsuit against the DoD and Defense Secretary Robert Gates for forcing him to attend ceremonial prayers. That lawsuit was dismissed because the Army claimed Sergeant Chalker failed to exhaust intra-military remedies.“The Army lied, period. They said I didn’t go through JAG, IG, EO, and the Chain of Command. I did. JAG told me to go to IG. IG told me it wasn’t within their purview and I should go to EO. My EO complaint was denied, and the Army’s lawyers deliberately obfuscated this fact by equivocating it with a separate and unrelated EO complaint I filed later. My commander lied in his sworn statement that he never received any EO complaint from me, even though the fact that he denied it was the event which led to my lawsuit. [...] I could’ve appealed the first EO complaint, but as you can see the system is clearly broken and can’t be trusted.”The Army has declared war on atheism. Service to this nation means nothing less than enduring years of unconstitutional spiritual terrorism at the hands of the Christian Taliban who have infiltrated our Army. This fight can’t be won within a system of self-sustaining corruption, and the courts are too cowardly to impose the corrections that must be imposed to fix it from the outside.The only way to fight back is to get out. This is a call to disarm. Do not enlist, and do not reenlist. Fulfill your obligations, then join the Exodus of the best and the Brightest. I’ll see you here on the outside.I am required to say this: The views and opinions expressed herein are solely those of the author and do not reflect official Army policy.~Anonymous——————*Justin Griffith’s reply:The military is seriously jeopardizing their relations with the non-religious community, whether intentionally or not. There is a real risk of a ‘brain drain’, and a growing sense of injustice threatening to create a domino effect. I of course have advocated a positive change, encouraging more and more atheists, humanists, agnostics, and non-theists to come forward. It’s difficult, and I understand that.I know that many of you may get overwhelmed, and the circumstances of every individual are extremely varied. But if you can find a way to resist the temptation to give up the fight, the Military Atheists & Secular Humanists (M*A*S*H) groups are sprouting up everywhere. If you there isn’t one already where you are, please contact Jason Torpy, President of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (MAAF).M*A*S*H is the new network of local communities in the MAAF organization. Though a long-standing goal of Jason Torpy’s decade long mission, he can’t do it alone. We need motivated people to empower others at the local level on every post. Our first group at Fort Bragg has over 50 members in the first few months, and we are very close to being a legitimate and recognized group by the chaplains. When we accomplish that here, we will show everyone else how to do it too. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Why should the military put in the same effort for a group that makes up about 1% of the population?vs one that makes up 85%+?Silly atheist, just go find some foxholes and wait for CNN to report that they have in fact found you. Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 Why should the military put in the same effort for a group that makes up about 1% of the population?vs one that makes up 85%+?Silly atheist, just go find some foxholes and wait for CNN to report that they have in fact found you.Yeah, so all that honor and integrity stuff they preach is just bullshit I suppose. It's okay to lie to your enlisted men I guess.And I think you vastly underestimate the power of that lineup to attract a large crowd as well. Link to post Share on other sites
BaseJester 1 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Why should the military put in the same effort for a group that makes up about 1% of the population?vs one that makes up 85%+?Silly atheist, just go find some foxholes and wait for CNN to report that they have in fact found you.If a poster had the goal to make Christians look like ignorant ****tards, would his posts be discernible from Balloon Guy's posts? I'm starting to feel silly for taking any of it at face value. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Why should the military put in the same effort for a group that makes up about 1% of the population? 15%More nonreligious people in this country than African Americans. Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 15%More nonreligious people in this country than African Americans.Oh great...now there'll be talk of enslaving the atheists. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Oh great...now there'll be talk of enslaving the atheists.Well I don't think we've been enslaved, but certainly treated as second-class citizens. Link to post Share on other sites
Spademan 94 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 By anonymous; republished with permission.There is a fairly liberal (not the political kind, but the term itself) helping of hyperbole involved in the letter and the response. My Qualifications: Uber badass, vigorous and gifted student of logic, reason and critical thought from the age of 8, giant IQ, best human alive, soldier at Ft. Bragg with experience up to the most elite of such.Conclusions: Yes, the Army is titled toward religious idiocy. Various anecdotal experiences include: 1) Garrison commander asking everyone to bow their heads as he prays. In Iraq. Response to particular instance: Look around while everyone bows their heads. As commander prays, state aloud, "you guys might as well be prostrating on the ground and mumbling about Allah." A few chuckles ensue, one "hard look" which is returned and immediately ceases. 2) Highest ranking member of unit says something about prayer.Response to particular instance: "You're an idiot." Tension begins. Argument follows. Ranking member realizes his long held beliefs are untenable. Argument subsides with ranking member saying, "ok, good points, get out of my office" with a smile.3) Spiritual fitness survey is assigned.Response to particular instance: "There is no way in hell I'm filling this nonsense out. What is a "spirit?". Survey avoided.-----------------Obviously things are going to be worse for a soldier who isn't good looking, scores well on the PT test, shoots well and has multiple times been identified by peers, underlings and "superiors" as the best at his MOS. It is more of a problem for everyone else than it is for me.But it isn't nearly as bad as proposed in that letter. And, to call for leaving, or refraining from service due to atheism is so cowardly and hyperbolic as to be deplorable.There are far better reasons for leaving after you pick up a skill set, or refraining if your ultimate goal isn't helping people. There are many fine men and women in the Military, suffering some hardships (not all, obviously... some just make a livable paycheck when benefits are included), atheist and Invisible Wizard believers, who may be wrongly influenced by that Fox News like letter. Sound and fury, signifying almost nothing. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 15%More nonreligious people in this country than African Americans.Grouping agnostics and no preference with atheist is the only way to boost your numbers.I still hold that only a tiny portion of America is arrogant enough to affirm that they have enough knowledge to declare that they know that God does not exists. Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Grouping agnostics and no preference with atheist is the only way to boost your numbers.I still hold that only a tiny portion of America is arrogant enough to affirm that they have enough knowledge to declare that they know that God does not exists.Why do you say "know" when it should obviously be "believe?" Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Why do you say "know" when it should obviously be "believe?"Because it destroys his argument. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Why do you say "know" when it should obviously be "believe?"Because no atheist can admit their world view is based on blind faith at its core. Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 There is a fairly liberal (not the political kind, but the term itself) helping of hyperbole involved in the letter and the response. My Qualifications: Uber badass, vigorous and gifted student of logic, reason and critical thought from the age of 8, giant IQ, best human alive, soldier at Ft. Bragg with experience up to the most elite of such.Conclusions: Yes, the Army is titled toward religious idiocy. Various anecdotal experiences include: 1) Garrison commander asking everyone to bow their heads as he prays. In Iraq. Response to particular instance: Look around while everyone bows their heads. As commander prays, state aloud, "you guys might as well be prostrating on the ground and mumbling about Allah." A few chuckles ensue, one "hard look" which is returned and immediately ceases. 2) Highest ranking member of unit says something about prayer.Response to particular instance: "You're an idiot." Tension begins. Argument follows. Ranking member realizes his long held beliefs are untenable. Argument subsides with ranking member saying, "ok, good points, get out of my office" with a smile.3) Spiritual fitness survey is assigned.Response to particular instance: "There is no way in hell I'm filling this nonsense out. What is a "spirit?". Survey avoided.-----------------Obviously things are going to be worse for a soldier who isn't good looking, scores well on the PT test, shoots well and has multiple times been identified by peers, underlings and "superiors" as the best at his MOS. It is more of a problem for everyone else than it is for me.But it isn't nearly as bad as proposed in that letter. And, to call for leaving, or refraining from service due to atheism is so cowardly and hyperbolic as to be deplorable.There are far better reasons for leaving after you pick up a skill set, or refraining if your ultimate goal isn't helping people. There are many fine men and women in the Military, suffering some hardships (not all, obviously... some just make a livable paycheck when benefits are included), atheist and Invisible Wizard believers, who may be wrongly influenced by that Fox News like letter. Sound and fury, signifying almost nothing.When I posted this I was hoping you'd respond. I thought the letter was a little over the top as well. But, hey while you are there and obviously so awesome, go kick the Commander in the nuts for me, k? Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Because no atheist can admit their world view is based on blind faith at its core.haha. believe does not equal "blind faith". unless your religious. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 haha. believe does not equal "blind faith". unless your religious.haha..it does in this circumstance... Link to post Share on other sites
BaseJester 1 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Because no atheist can admit their world view is based on blind faith at its core.That's retarded. Link to post Share on other sites
Mills 0 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Because no atheist can admit their world view is based on blind faith at its core.Even now I question if you are really a Christian, or if you are just trolling at genius levels. Link to post Share on other sites
Skeleton Jelly 2 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 It could be both. Link to post Share on other sites
Mills 0 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 It could be both.true enough Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Grouping agnostics and no preference with atheist is the only way to boost your numbers.I still hold that only a tiny portion of America is arrogant enough to affirm that they have enough knowledge to declare that they know that God does not exists.In fairness, it's really splitting hairs. Neither see any evidence of a creator but leaves open the possibility albeit an athiest is simply saying that it's probably a few degrees less likely. I don't really know of either that outright say that that possibility doesn't exist, just that it would be so minute as to not warrant giving it much credence. I mean, unicorns are possible too and I am holding out hope of having one for a pet one day. Link to post Share on other sites
Mills 0 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Grouping agnostics and no preference with atheist is the only way to boost your numbers.I still hold that only a tiny portion of America is arrogant enough to affirm that they have enough knowledge to declare that they know that God does not exists. And I still hold that you know what is incorrect about this statement Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Grouping agnostics and no preference with atheist is the only way to boost your numbers.Well in this case they are the group that is going to be unhappy about religion being forced down their throats in the military. I still hold that only a tiny portion of America is arrogant enough to affirm that they have enough knowledge to declare that they know that God does not exists.I totally agree. Probably 1% of atheists think this way, which makes them a fraction of a percent of the population. But at least those people are unreasonably certain and correct. How awful it must be to be unreasonably certain and wrong! Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Well in this case they are the group that is going to be unhappy about religion being forced down their throats in the military. I totally agree. Probably 1% of atheists think this way, which makes them a fraction of a percent of the population. But at least those people are unreasonably certain and correct. How awful it must be to be unreasonably certain and wrong!Does it feel awful?I wouldn't know.But I do love how you are implying that the smallest fraction of the population are the correct ones, just with bad reasoning methods.It really is a thing of beauty to take this stand. That the logic is bad, that there is no legitimate reason to justify their thought processes, but they are right irregardless of their methods.Just beautiful, in a horribly sad perspective. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 And I still hold that you know what is incorrect about this statementHere comes the semantics police.Quick, explain the real meaning of the word atheist, keeping one hand firmly perched next to your eye that is closest to the book 1984. No reason to muddy the water thinking of newspeak at a time like this. Link to post Share on other sites
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