Tucson Shooting: The Coming Blame Game

[Balloon guy 158]

You apprently missunderstood what I said.

never!

I never said it was the only way to get people to die for their country (group), just that it was one of the most effective. Group survival worked for early humans, and still does, due to reciprocal altruism. (You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours). Humans evolved in small groups and it served as a survival technique for sharing food, etc. In this way, people defended each other for the group to insure survival.

Doesn't explain the motivation of the communist soldiers rounding up people and shooting them, and this is the greatest example of mass murders. Fear was their motivation, fear of being the next one on the wall.

To get people to die for "indirect altruism", (You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours later) it isn't so easy to convince people. Religon evolved when groups got larger, "acting for later rewards". Commiting to die for the state only goes so far since the connection of dying for the group to the reward might get blurred. This is where God comes into play. You aren't necessarily ending your life since it will continue in heaven and have "later rewards". Having your God defeated also threatens survival of the group. It provides a bigger, more altruist purpose for killing other humans and risking your life.

So some leader invented God so he could motivate his troops more efficiently? That is one forward thinking dude.

Not many people are going to rally around a war because someone doesn't believe in evolution since apparently people singing "Imagine" by Lennon doesn't work the crowd into enough of a frenzy. And the later reward is that you will simply rot in a grave isn't that appealing either.

Yet communist atheist are the biggest killing machine ever...Sounds like you read a book where someone tried to 'prove' that belief in God is bad for society and is using the same old; "It allows bad leaders to control their populous" idea. The problem with this is that so far people have shown themselves to be followers of every kind of philosophy, so to argue religion makes them more pliable requires you to ignore reality, or at least cherry pick examples and snap your finger hoping nobody notices the rest of the 'trick'.

[Balloon guy 158]

Person A says something untrue about Christianity.Person B(G) says something untrue about evolution.Person C (me) points out how outlandishly false person B's statements are. How does the bolded describe that?

Nevermind, I guess I didn't look at it from that perspective..........

The bolded is not a logical or supported statement, and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You either left out some words, or I dunno. I would list, as examples of people "closer to evolutionary thought" than Hitler, literally every single biologist, evolutionary scientist, geneticist, and geologist who has lived since Darwin. I'd also include people like myself who have a basic understanding of evolution. So about 400,000,000 people (give or take) would be ahead of Hitler, as far as understanding evolution. If we simply ignore those 400 million people, including every expert in that field who has ever lived, then yes, Hitler is the single greatest example of evolutionary thinking.

People liking ice cream then going out and killing people doesn't justify an opinion on ice cream.People killing large numbers of people because they have not evolved as far as them and therefore they are sub-humans, does justify an opinion on evolution.People killing people because they want their land/resources/women and are Christians doesn't justify an opinion on the merits of religion.People killing people because they have replaced the State as the ultimate source of devotion and are therefore going to kill anyone who doesn't follow this philosophy, well that does justify an opinion on the merits of atheism.So cliff notes:You: Religion is badMe: Lack of religion is worseYou: Nuh uhMe: Uh huh

[Roll the Bones 74]

never!Doesn't explain the motivation of the communist soldiers rounding up people and shooting them, and this is the greatest example of mass murders. Fear was their motivation, fear of being the next one on the wall.So some leader invented God so he could motivate his troops more efficiently? That is one forward thinking dude.Yet communist atheist are the biggest killing machine ever...Sounds like you read a book where someone tried to 'prove' that belief in God is bad for society and is using the same old; "It allows bad leaders to control their populous" idea. The problem with this is that so far people have shown themselves to be followers of every kind of philosophy, so to argue religion makes them more pliable requires you to ignore reality, or at least cherry pick examples and snap your finger hoping nobody notices the rest of the 'trick'.

I never said anything about trying to prove God was bad for society, only that religon was usefull to provide a morality system that enabled people to act with indirect altruism.

Doesn't explain the motivation of the communist soldiers rounding up people and shooting them, and this is the greatest example of mass murders. Fear was their motivation, fear of being the next one on the wall.

Never thought about it, but you might have a point. Communist soldiers weren't rallied behind a religon encouraging them to risk their lives, so making them go to war at gunpoint and using fear of death was probably an optimal resort. Stick instead of the carrot. Communism was a myth just like religon though. Marxists saw communism as a perfect world myth. It was the liberation of people through a 6 stage process that required the collapse of capitalism. Communism was the New Beginning. It had all the facets of a religimtyh in that there would be a perfect society once communism was fully implemented. The majority of the bible predicted the same perfect society on earth as did Farrakhan when the space ships landed and got rid of the white people. The most common reason people give for believing in a god is that there would be no basis for morality. To be honest, religon and God and morality have been so intertwined with society, for so long that there is probably some truth to it. There is probably an evolutionary-based, epigenetic rule to the connection.Some guy wrote a game theory program called Prisoner's Dilemma (you have probably seen this and it can be googled if you haven't). He invited everyone to write a program and had competitions to see which program would be the best. The winning program was called Tit for Tat. The first move you cooperated and every move thereafter you simply matched your opponent, tit for tat, or reciprical altruism, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. You stab me, I'll stab you! This is the best model for societies to survive and exist.To be known as a cooperator in your group wasn't immediate though, you needed to let people know that you were over time. This is where religon comes in. In addition to providing rules, morals and enforcement, it provided an opportunity to show others that you were loyal and commited. If you see another person at church or (religous gathering) week after week, and every month at confessional, getting circumsized, being bar mitzhved, not eating meat, wearing a Yalmulke, singing psalms, obeying the Sabbath, (or not using electricity on the Sabbath), facing east to pray, taking bread and wine as the body of your savior, going to war for your God, and risk death for the group, well, that kind of commitment is pretty hard to fake.But really, our lives encounter millions of real life game theory events over time and we learn who the cooperators are and who are the defectors. Through religon we come believe our actions are moral and just and to judge who cooperates and who are the defectors by those morals.

"It allows bad leaders to control their populous" idea.

It can also allow good leaders to control their populous as well.

[Mills 0]

as spademan's #1 fan, let me just say: stop. he is better than you. in every way.

This is simply adorable..

[Balloon guy 158]

I never said anything about trying to prove God was bad for society, only that religon was usefull to provide a morality system that enabled people to act with indirect altruism.Never thought about it, but you might have a point. Communist soldiers weren't rallied behind a religon encouraging them to risk their lives, so making them go to war at gunpoint and using fear of death was probably an optimal resort. Stick instead of the carrot. Communism was a myth just like religon though. Marxists saw communism as a perfect world myth. It was the liberation of people through a 6 stage process that required the collapse of capitalism. Communism was the New Beginning. It had all the facets of a religimtyh in that there would be a perfect society once communism was fully implemented. The majority of the bible predicted the same perfect society on earth as did Farrakhan when the space ships landed and got rid of the white people. The most common reason people give for believing in a god is that there would be no basis for morality. To be honest, religon and God and morality have been so intertwined with society, for so long that there is probably some truth to it. There is probably an evolutionary-based, epigenetic rule to the connection.Some guy wrote a game theory program called Prisoner's Dilemma (you have probably seen this and it can be googled if you haven't). He invited everyone to write a program and had competitions to see which program would be the best. The winning program was called Tit for Tat. The first move you cooperated and every move thereafter you simply matched your opponent, tit for tat, or reciprical altruism, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. You stab me, I'll stab you! This is the best model for societies to survive and exist.To be known as a cooperator in your group wasn't immediate though, you needed to let people know that you were over time. This is where religon comes in. In addition to providing rules, morals and enforcement, it provided an opportunity to show others that you were loyal and commited. If you see another person at church or (religous gathering) week after week, and every month at confessional, getting circumsized, being bar mitzhved, not eating meat, wearing a Yalmulke, singing psalms, obeying the Sabbath, (or not using electricity on the Sabbath), facing east to pray, taking bread and wine as the body of your savior, going to war for your God, and risk death for the group, well, that kind of commitment is pretty hard to fake.But really, our lives encounter millions of real life game theory events over time and we learn who the cooperators are and who are the defectors. Through religon we come believe our actions are moral and just and to judge who cooperates and who are the defectors by those morals.

The theory you are putting forth here is kind of a horse before the cart way of looking at it, but I guess only from my perspective.In other words, you approach the notion of why do people do these things and then fit religion into the equation. But you pre-supposes that religion is 'false' and only a crutch for people.I approach this answer from the perspective of God having a set of rules, and man choosing to do things contrary to these rules. but I pre-suppose God's existence and man's sinful nature being a major factor.So from opposite viewpoints we will arrive at the results with completely different cause and effect motivations. And in a way we will both be right.

[Roll the Bones 74]

The theory you are putting forth here is kind of a horse before the cart way of looking at it, but I guess only from my perspective.In other words, you approach the notion of why do people do these things and then fit religion into the equation. But you pre-supposes that religion is 'false' and only a crutch for people.I approach this answer from the perspective of God having a set of rules, and man choosing to do things contrary to these rules. but I pre-suppose God's existence and man's sinful nature being a major factor.So from opposite viewpoints we will arrive at the results with completely different cause and effect motivations. And in a way we will both be right.

In other words, you approach the notion of why do people do these things and then fit religion into the equation.

Well, people invented myths long before religon was even invented as a way to explain the unknown. Mythmaking or magical thinking predated organized religon.

But you pre-supposes that religion is 'false' and only a crutch for people.

Not so much crutch as an effective relief for anxiety and guide for moral conduct that benefit the group.

I approach this answer from the perspective of God having a set of rules, and man choosing to do things contrary to these rules. but I pre-suppose God's existence and man's sinful nature being a major factor.

You simply adhere to one of many forms of these myths man has invented. They all have pre-suppositions. Some thought that dancing caused rain gods to favor them. Some tribes traded spells for food and sex. I think it's simply an error in thinking or belief, or believing a falsehood as opposed to rejecting a truth. We all do this sometimes we even hit upon correct thinking, believing a truth and rejecting a falsehood.

[Balloon guy 158]

Well, people invented myths long before religon was even invented as a way to explain the unknown. Mythmaking or magical thinking predated organized religon.

Again, this can only be true if this is true.If God did speak to Adam and the rest as described in the Bible, then myths were invented long after 'religion'

Not so much crutch as an effective relief for anxiety and guide for moral conduct that benefit the group.

And if there is one thing we've seen over and over again in societies, is that when large groups get together, they make good solid decisions that lst for a long long time.

You simply adhere to one of many forms of these myths man has invented. They all have pre-suppositions. Some thought that dancing caused rain gods to favor them. Some tribes traded spells for food and sex. I think it's simply an error in thinking or belief, or believing a falsehood as opposed to rejecting a truth. We all do this sometimes we even hit upon correct thinking, believing a truth and rejecting a falsehood.

You simply have found an answer that fits your desired belief that you are right.

[Roll the Bones 74]

Again, this can only be true if this is true.If God did speak to Adam and the rest as described in the Bible, then myths were invented long after 'religion'And if there is one thing we've seen over and over again in societies, is that when large groups get together, they make good solid decisions that lst for a long long time.You simply have found an answer that fits your desired belief that you are right.

Religon is a social institution that evolved as an integral mechanism of human culture to create and promote myths, that is to encourage altruism and reciprical altruism, and to reveal the level of commitment to cooperate and reciprocate among members of the community. There are many examples that predate Christianity, but in fact the stories in the bible were myths since they predated Christianity. The stories of Moses and Abraham were myths. In short, God is a myth. Think about it. God is everywhere. God is pattern, an explanation for our universe, our world, ourselves. God tells us why we are here and where we are going. God is the most sacred myth ever constructed by mythmaking animals. God is the enforcer of the rules. He's the final arbiter of morality and the highest object of our commitment. God is the integral part of religon. They are inseparable. People believe in God because we are pattern seeking, storytelling, mythmaking, religous, moral animals.

[Balloon guy 158]

Religon is a social institution that evolved as an integral mechanism of human culture to create and promote myths, that is to encourage altruism and reciprical altruism, and to reveal the level of commitment to cooperate and reciprocate among members of the community. There are many examples that predate Christianity, but in fact the stories in the bible were myths since they predated Christianity. The stories of Moses and Abraham were myths. In short, God is a myth. Think about it. God is everywhere. God is pattern, an explanation for our universe, our world, ourselves. God tells us why we are here and where we are going. God is the most sacred myth ever constructed by mythmaking animals. God is the enforcer of the rules. He's the final arbiter of morality and the highest object of our commitment. God is the integral part of religon. They are inseparable. People believe in God because we are pattern seeking, storytelling, mythmaking, religous, moral animals.

God doesn't think you are a myth.but I agree we are a myth making people, we made up evolution didn't we?

[Roll the Bones 74]

God doesn't think you are a myth.but I agree we are a myth making people, we made up evolution didn't we?

Well, my theory of mythology is a myth!

[BaseJester 1]

So I turn this way of thinking on them and attribute Hitler or communism by using THE EXACT SAME STANDARDS. . . Although Hitler really is closer to evolutionary thought than any single example in all of history, so it helps that I have his whole 'superior master race' that 'evolved' and his action that support his beliefs, and you guys only have his words he used while trying to deceive the Catholic Church.

You seem to be saying simultaneously that your argument is both obviously stupid and thus a mockery of your adversaries' position but also, you know, has some merit.

[vbnautilus 48]

Hence you get Hitler, Stalin and Mao Zedong. And I get the crusades, and radical muslims. And we will need another 2,000 years to catch up to you guys in murder counts. Actually we may need a couple dozen millenniums....And that's only if you guys can refrain from killing people by the millions every time you write another book.

The real evil here is dogmatic ideology. Your religion, the muslim religion, communism, nazism, and the democratic party are all examples of this. Those are the other guys on your team when you ignore reason in favor of dogma.

[Balloon guy 158]

The real evil here is dogmatic ideology. Your religion, the muslim religion, communism, nazism, and the democratic party are all examples of this. Those are the other guys on your team when you ignore reason in favor of dogma.

Are you dogmatic about this?

[vbnautilus 48]

Are you dogmatic about this?

Hey, if it turns out there is evidence that dogmatic beliefs are really good for people, I'm willing to listen.

[Balloon guy 158]

So glad the latest Occupy shooter who took pot shots at the White House wasn't instantly branded with the 'Occupy Movement is causing violence' It appears the media has learned from the Tucson shooting?Or is it only when leftist Oprah fans who hate capitalism, and think the Iraq war was for oil, shoot at President Obama's children that they ignore the connection?I mean the guy is even claiming to be a reincarnation of Jesus.