10nl: Jj Overpair Facing Big Donkbets

[jmbreslin 0]

Rush Poker hand.Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($26.44)BB ($15.74)UTG ($11.58)UTG+1 ($16.45)MP1 ($16.34)MP2 ($16.80)Hero (MP3) ($10.05)CO ($9.09)Button ($17.20)Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J, J2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, Button calls $0.40, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.30Flop: ($1.35) 7, 7, 5(3 players)MP1 bets $1.35, Hero calls $1.35, 1 foldTurn: ($4.05) 9(2 players)MP1 bets $4.05, Hero thinks WTF??? and...

[trystero 0]

Just raise/call the flop....what hand limp calls pf and then donks the flop? pocket pairs. he raises better than jj, and doesn't play 55/77 so fast. if he has 7x then he has it. I wouldn't fold aa here and jj is basically equivalent to aa given pf action (of course it's dumb Rush 10nl so kk and shit is possible).

[jmbreslin 0]

A lot of shit is possible here, which is why I was so baffled. He should raise better than JJ, and shouldn't play a big flopped hand so fast, but perhaps that's exactly what he wants me to think. It would be unusual to see a player at this level play a hand this hard that I beat. A much more common pattern with a smaller pair would be a smallish donk, followed by a turn check, and then sometimes a bet on the river if I check behind on the turn.

[trystero 0]

I'm not folding aa, and I don't see jj as that different from aa given the pf action. Even donks know to raise with premium pairs preflop. If they limp then it's with the intention of 3betting when the action gets back to them. if I had to put him on one hand it'd be TT. don't raise pf because there are no picture cards, but flop an overpair and bet to protect.if he does have 7x/boat then he's potting not because he wants you to think he's weak; it's because he plays hold 'em like 7 card stud and the action's on him so he's got to bet. I don't attribute much logic to some random 10nl donk who just limp calls pf. I've played a lot of hands at 10nl, and I've seen donks play worse hands like this very often. That's the thing; you're playing donks, and they're erratic and don't know what they're doing. in fact I played an almost identical hand from Rush a few weeks ago. I opened jj utg and got 3 callers. flop came 842cc and SB donked the pot. I called since we were multiway (maybe I should've raised), and turn paired the 2 and he potted again, I shoved, and he showed 99

[Lucoo_ 0]

I raise flop and get it in all day long here. This is a pocket pair lower than jacks like 90% of the time.

[jmbreslin 0]

I found myself thinking, "If going broke with TPTK is bad, isn't going broke with a JJ overpair even worse?"

[trystero 0]

for one that maxim wouldn't even be true. it'd be better to go broke with an overpair than TPTK because an overpair has more absolute strength than top pair. two, it's not necessarily bad. it all depends on your opponent. now here you don't know much about him except that 1) he's playing 10nl rush 2) he's limp/called pf 3) he donked the pot on a dry board. auxiliary clues suggest that he's bad. a few days ago I snapcalled a turn shove w/ace-high and it was semi-good (we had the same hand). I also folded AK on a K76Q turn bet to a nit. it's all relative. to live by maxims like, "going broke with one pair is bad," is to ignore the situational game that is poker. so here you know villain is PROBABLY bad, but not necessarily so. given that, do some basic handreading and conclude that JJ = AA and then ask yourself: would you fold AA on this flop to an unknown 10nl limp/caller? if you would then you have to reconsider your approach to cash games at this limit.(of course the jj=aa logic isn't foolproof, because sometimes our opponent does play a bigger pair like this...if I had to pick one it'd be QQ)do I always expect to be good here? nah. I'd say that like 30-35% of the time he does indeed show up with 7x/55 or some terribly played qq. but overall I'd say we're ahead.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Rush Poker hand.Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($26.44)BB ($15.74)UTG ($11.58)UTG+1 ($16.45)MP1 ($16.34)MP2 ($16.80)Hero (MP3) ($10.05)CO ($9.09)Button ($17.20)Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J, J2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, Button calls $0.40, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.30Flop: ($1.35) 7, 7, 5(3 players)MP1 bets $1.35, Hero calls $1.35, 1 foldTurn: ($4.05) 9(2 players)MP1 bets $4.05, Hero thinks WTF??? and...

Why did villain take the lead away from you on the flop? Because he has a 7? Seems like bad play on his part, but it would make sense if he puts you on a big pair and thinks you'll pay off. Because he has AA-QQ? Why didn't he take the lead/three bet OOP PF with a multi-way pot? Is he under-full? He'd probably never try to push you (and the third player) this hard on flop and turn when you've indicated strength, he'd try to get value from you both (or should). So what makes sense? MP limp/flatted on the flop. He doesn't hold a big pair. He prob got involved with some sort of drawing hand. I dunno, I think you are beaten a lot here. I think you're "even money/slightly losing" over time by getting it in here. I don't think getting stacked in this spot is awful, but I don't know we're a winner over time playing these JJs out. If I folded, I'd note who this villain is and play cop on him if this seems like a habit with him. If aggression isn't his thing over time, we know we did the right thing.

[jmbreslin 0]

for one that maxim wouldn't even be true. it'd be better to go broke with an overpair than TPTK because an overpair has more absolute strength than top pair.

Please explain.

[jmbreslin 0]

Why did villain take the lead away from you on the flop? Because he has a 7? Seems like bad play on his part, but it would make sense if he puts you on a big pair and thinks you'll pay off. Because he has AA-QQ? Why didn't he take the lead/three bet OOP PF with a multi-way pot? Is he under-full? He'd probably never try to push you (and the third player) this hard on flop and turn when you've indicated strength, he'd try to get value from you both (or should). So what makes sense? MP limp/flatted on the flop. He doesn't hold a big pair. He prob got involved with some sort of drawing hand. I dunno, I think you are beaten a lot here. I think you're "even money/slightly losing" over time by getting it in here. I don't think getting stacked in this spot is awful, but I don't know we're a winner over time playing these JJs out. If I folded, I'd note who this villain is and play cop on him if this seems like a habit with him. If aggression isn't his thing over time, we know we did the right thing.

Your analysis seems to suggest we're ahead, but then your second paragraph indicates that we're usually beaten in this spot.I agree we can probably discount the underfull, and probably AA/KK, but that's about it. This could be QQ, 99, 7x on the bad side, or TT, 88, maybe 66 on the good side. I really don't see much else in his range. The idea of playing a hand like 7x this way is interesting. He's not sure I'll CB in a 3-way pot, and his hand is disguised, so he pots it to see what I do. When I call he knows I likely have a hand with value (as opposed to something like missed AK/AQ), so he figures he can get full value with another PSB on the turn. Same reasoning could be behind 99. He doesn't have to worry about playing it slow when he fills up on the turn because he knows I like my hand enough to call a PSB on the flop.The thing I'm struggling with here is the dichotomy between the fact that most 10NL players are donks, and he open limp-called (a donk play), but then starts firing away postflop in a way that is completely at odds with a typical limp-call 10NL donk. It's like two different players preflop and postflop.

[trystero 0]

Please explain.

I'm not sure what to explain...by definition an overpair is a higher pair than TPTK. JJ > AT on a T98 board. The only time top pair is the highest pair is when it's an ace, and in that case an overpair is impossible.

[Ninja Ace 1]

This is such an incredibly easy shove it's ridiculous.

[rrumsey 0]

shove is about even money imo. not horrible to go broke here. Your right to think a lot of shite could be happening here. since you showed very little interest postflop i have to believe villains range is pretty wide making a shove a slightly +ev imo

[jmbreslin 0]

I'm not sure what to explain...by definition an overpair is a higher pair than TPTK. JJ > AT on a T98 board. The only time top pair is the highest pair is when it's an ace, and in that case an overpair is impossible.

Sorry, I didn't mean an overpair vs TPTK on the same board. I meant that if it is usually bad to go broke with AQ on a Q86 board, isn't it just as bad to go broke with JJ on a 775 board?

[trystero 0]

But it's not "usually" bad to go broke in those spots. That's the whole point. Poker's situational, even in Rush, where context clues can help to inform your opponent's competence. Sometimes folding AQ on a Q86r board is disastrous, and other times it's standard and easy. I can't tell you if it's usually wrong to go broke in those hands. Who am I facing? Is it a French donk in 10nl? Am I playing 50nl against a multitabling reg? Is it a live game against my family tree of donks? Am I playing a tough reg who can c/r bluff dry boards because he feels I'm a nit and cannot play back at him even if I know he's repping nothing?A few days ago I was trying to explain to my friend this very same concept in poker, and he couldn't wrap his head around it. He had been indoctrinated into the belief that you play "big pots with big hands" and that one pair postflop is not a big hand. I was trying to show him that hand strength is always always relative, and that the strength of a hand depends on the tendencies of your opponent(s), the board texture, the action in a pot, and the effective depth of stacks (among other factors). Sometimes AA on a 895r board is a snap fold; other times a snap shove. There's no way to tell what's "usually" correct...The "one pair sucks" maxim is a fine foundation for NLHE, because it allows you to appreciate the often flimsy value of one pair hands. Many beginning players fall in love with one pair hands because they cannot evaluate them properly, so for them it's nice to consider a big hand for a "big pot." But as you grow as a player, you have to abandon this kind of thinking and begin to consider the totality of a situation.as for this specific example, no, it's worse to go broke w/JJ on a 775 board than AQ on a q86 board. But in reality there's no way to know. I feel terrible holding AQ if I had gotten to the flop against a solid player's 3-bet. And I feel great holding it if I'm in position against an aggro reg whose 3-bet % is 9%. W/JJ on a 775 board I also feel terrible against a solid reg who perceives me as a nit - nits like me imo should fold weak overpairs to solid players way more often, because they know the strength of your range pretty well. But if it's against some clueless and straightforward player, even a "reg," then I feel good especially if he didn't 3-bet me pf because I know he'll overplay worse overpairs, and he never has a better one.

[rrumsey 0]

But it's not "usually" bad to go broke in those spots. That's the whole point. Poker's situational, even in Rush, where context clues can help to inform your opponent's competence. Sometimes folding AQ on a Q86r board is disastrous, and other times it's standard and easy. I can't tell you if it's usually wrong to go broke in those hands. Who am I facing? Is it a French donk in 10nl? Am I playing 50nl against a multitabling reg? Is it a live game against my family tree of donks? Am I playing a tough reg who can c/r bluff dry boards because he feels I'm a nit and cannot play back at him even if I know he's repping nothing?A few days ago I was trying to explain to my friend this very same concept in poker, and he couldn't wrap his head around it. He had been indoctrinated into the belief that you play "big pots with big hands" and that one pair postflop is not a big hand. I was trying to show him that hand strength is always always relative, and that the strength of a hand depends on the tendencies of your opponent(s), the board texture, the action in a pot, and the effective depth of stacks (among other factors). Sometimes AA on a 895r board is a snap fold; other times a snap shove. There's no way to tell what's "usually" correct...The "one pair sucks" maxim is a fine foundation for NLHE, because it allows you to appreciate the often flimsy value of one pair hands. Many beginning players fall in love with one pair hands because they cannot evaluate them properly, so for them it's nice to consider a big hand for a "big pot." But as you grow as a player, you have to abandon this kind of thinking and begin to consider the totality of a situation.as for this specific example, no, it's worse to go broke w/JJ on a 775 board than AQ on a q86 board. But in reality there's no way to know. I feel terrible holding AQ if I had gotten to the flop against a solid player's 3-bet. And I feel great holding it if I'm in position against an aggro reg whose 3-bet % is 9%. W/JJ on a 775 board I also feel terrible against a solid reg who perceives me as a nit - nits like me imo should fold weak overpairs to solid players way more often, because they know the strength of your range pretty well. But if it's against some clueless and straightforward player, even a "reg," then I feel good especially if he didn't 3-bet me pf because I know he'll overplay worse overpairs, and he never has a better one.

in a nutshell it is equity. equity vs. villains range. you have a ton of equity. shove. how is that for a cliff note! by the way, nice post man