Hey Spademan

[Spademan 94]

And I'm gonna tell you that this is incorrect. Pretty much all animals behave rationally to a degree, and it would certainly be hard to come up with a definition of rationality that separates us from all of the great apes. Most cognitive scientists agree that the really unique thing that humans do cognitively is probably something like recursion, which allows for some of the unique properties that our language shows, but is not the basis for all rational behavior.

Uh oh, vb is taking this from the purely philosophical domain into behavioral research and study.Now things are getting INTERESTING!Waters has toned down his gruff assault JUST IN TIME!I'm staying tuned folks, for what is sure to be an edifying experience in RAND vs ~RAND.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Uh oh, vb is taking this from the purely philosophical domain into behavioral research and study.Now things are getting INTERESTING!

I really hope he starts flaming vb about this subject. That would be an entertaining bloodbath.

[checkymcfold 0]

what im saying is to define something we establish the essential difference between it and every other thing in the universe. not point out similarities it has with other things. yes we have animal and biological drives and instincts, im not saying we dont. a table and a tree can both be made of wood, but the table is essentially different for reasons other than the wood.and i get it now, you just didnt like the fountainhead (which i havent read). her philosophy isnt perfectly set in her novels in my opinion. the virtue of selfishness is a better, clearer, shorter than 5 million pages place to start.

i understand that you're focusing on the differences we have with animals. i'm saying that choice is an arbitrary one.

because those arnt of philosophical interest. we need not waste time arguing obvious biological facts.

i'm arguing that they are of philosophical interest.

no. a rational being will not initiate force against another. is it in your rational self interest to go around killing people? no, because eventually someone will do the same to you. and in a modern society youll be thrown in jail/executed. nazism is not rational. it is the definition of irrational. nazism arose from the height of irrationality.

you seem to have an odd view of our rational capacity. people can and do make relatively logical arguments for all sorts of absurd shit. you're doing this with objectivism right now, for instance.the definition of irrationality is not nazism. the definition of irrationality is me running up to mcgee, putting a rabbit on his head, yelling "rainbows! monkeys! imaginary numbers!" and running away, naked for good measure.

ok lets get this straight. you can control when you are rational and when you are not. sometimes you may lose sight of that and be blinded by emotion, fine. but does that mean that if you fly off the handle and kill someone who steps on your foot that thats ok? is that "just the way we are"? no, thats irrationality. we should seek to limit that by looking at the world objectively and rationally. ayn rand is not saying we should be ashamed of having emotions. shes not saying if you make a mistake you need to go kill yourself (that would be irrational). shes just saying you need to rationally learn from those mistakes and try to better yourself by living more rationally, that rational self interest is the key to happiness.shes not saying emotions are irrational. it is rational to feel happy when you acomplish something that is good (something in your rational self interest). she doesnt hold rationality on a pedestal, she holds your own happiness on a pedestal, as per aristotle. rationality is just how you achieve that.

ah, ok, so she mistranslates eudiamonia. that's fine, a lot of people do. it doesn't mean "happiness," but rather something closer to "excellence" or "living well." this renders a lot of people who say that they follow aristotle either entirely redundant or more than a little off base.for aristotle, the definition of the ethical mean is achieved as an execution of phronesis, or "practical wisdom." this is NOT akin to anything we'd call rationality--it's achieved, says aristotle, through practice, honing of habit, and actually, really, doing things. phronesis doesn't really translate well into contemporary western language for the odd double-edged meaning it has. it's not something that is purely an "ability" or "faculty" (as "rationality" would be), but rather inherently tied to actual, real actions. this interconnectedness with actual, lived life is analogous to the difference between our word "happiness" and the greek eudiamonia. whereas the former is something that lives purely within our heads, the latter only takes on meaning if we actually enact it in the (political, aristotle would say) world around us.basically, rand is left with one of two choices: 1. she's an aristotelian and merely substituting "rationality" for "phronesis," in which case she's some combination of a plagiarist and poor translator, or2. she doesn't understand what aristotle means by "phronesis" or "eudiamonia," meaning she's just a bad philosopher.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

the definition of irrationality is not nazism. the definition of irrationality is me running up to mcgee, putting a rabbit on his head, yelling "rainbows! monkeys! imaginary numbers!" and running away, naked for good measure.r.

Um, I think you mean "foreplay"

[checkymcfold 0]

Um, I think you mean "foreplay"

nah, if it was foreplay, i'd yell "sasquatch" instead of "monkeys." also, just to remind you, the safety word is "postmodernity."

[antistuff 0]

the definition of irrationality is not nazism. the definition of irrationality is me running upto mcgee, putting a rabbit on his head, yelling "rainbows! monkeys! imaginary numbers!" and running away, naked for good measure.

i thought that was just another friday night?

[checkymcfold 0]

i thought that was just another friday night?

i really don't do enough drugs anymore. sigh.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

nah, if it was foreplay, i'd yell "sasquatch" instead of "monkeys." also, just to remind you, the safety word is "postmodernity."

see, that's why we never click anymore. Postmodernity is what I yell when I have a prostate orgasm. Kind of like the way Gilbert Arenas yells Hibatchi when sinking a shot..

[checkymcfold 0]

see, that's why we never click anymore. Postmodernity is what I yell when I have a prostate orgasm. Kind of like the way Gilbert Arenas yells Hibatchi when sinking a shot..

well shit, that explains why i was never left satisfied.

[uncooper 1]