Shutting It Down In Double-or-nothings

[jmbreslin 0]

Recently started playing some of the $5.40 NLHE DoN's on Stars and I had a general strat question for those of you who play them. Suppose you get off to a good start and build a decent stack early. Do you ever shut it down and basically fold to the money? If so, how large does your stack have to be for you to feel safe shutting it down?Last night I built up a stack of roughly 3500 early and almost ended up squandering it on steal raises that failed and such. I thought I was probably more active than I should have been, putting my comfortable position at risk in the process. Just wondering how you guys approach these.

[droberts 3]

i actually like to play these DoN's also. My strategy when i get a little bit ahead is play pretty tight. Especially when it is down to 7 or 6 people and u are sitting like 3rd or 4th in chips, but if i have a larger stack, lets say around 4000 or more, i play a little more agressive vs. the medium stacks. I think they will fold alot because there are generally 1 or 2 stacks shorter than them and they dont want to risk it if they are not the short stack. This strat seems to be working well for me so far, but im sure there are plenty of good/better strategies out there.

[Chet Chetterson 0]

4000 is usually the number I need to shut down. You don't need to steal ever other than shovebot situations at the very end.

[jmbreslin 0]

4000 is usually the number I need to shut down. You don't need to steal ever other than shovebot situations at the very end.

Not sure I agree with the last part. The antes kick in much earlier than in normal STTs, so stealing does become important fairly early on. I just struggle with how active to be in the mid stages with a decent stack.I agree that 4000+ is a safe number but I wonder if you could effectively shut it down even lower than that, say closer to 3000. I guess it depends on how the table is playing. I wouldn't shut down with 3000 if there were still 9 or 10 left, but you could probably shut down with 3000 and 7 or 8 players.

[kkot 0]

i actually like to play these DoN's also. My strategy when i get a little bit ahead is play pretty tight. Especially when it is down to 7 or 6 people and u are sitting like 3rd or 4th in chips, but if i have a larger stack, lets say around 4000 or more, i play a little more agressive vs. the medium stacks. I think they will fold alot because there are generally 1 or 2 stacks shorter than them and they dont want to risk it if they are not the short stack. This strat seems to be working well for me so far, but im sure there are plenty of good/better strategies out there.

I think you really have to know your opponents if you are going to try this. They have to be good enough to realize that you need a big hand to be risking a significant portion of your stack.edit: I don't mean to sound rude, but I actually really hate this whole idea.The chips we gain after our stack reaches a certain point become almost worthless compared to the chips that we already have in our stack. If we amass a large stack, we NEED to be playing super tight, because the risk/reward isn't there. If the chips we gain are worthless, and the chips we may lose makes our equity fragile, there really isn't a reason to be playing pots, even with some of the strongest hands. Everything depends on our chip stack, and the stacks around the table in relation to each other.

[Yahkin 0]

I think you really have to know your opponents if you are going to try this. They have to be good enough to realize that you need a big hand to be risking a significant portion of your stack.edit: I don't mean to sound rude, but I actually really hate this whole idea.The chips we gain after our stack reaches a certain point become almost worthless compared to the chips that we already have in our stack. If we amass a large stack, we NEED to be playing super tight, because the risk/reward isn't there. If the chips we gain are worthless, and the chips we may lose makes our equity fragile, there really isn't a reason to be playing pots, even with some of the strongest hands. Everything depends on our chip stack, and the stacks around the table in relation to each other.

QFT. These are essentially satellites.

[jmbreslin 0]

I agree. If you could plot it on a graph representing the relationship between chip stack and tournament equity, you would see a steady climb followed by a severe flattening. At some point you hit a stack size where the gain in equity from accumulating more chips becomes negligible. My question is, what is that stack size? There must be a mathematical way to calculate that, no?The difference between the DoNs and a regular STT is that because it is more difficult to finish in the top 3 than the top 5, the point at which the graph starts to flatten comes later (i.e., with a higher chip stack) in the STTs than in the DoNs.

[Yahkin 0]

I agree. If you could plot it on a graph representing the relationship between chip stack and tournament equity, you would see a steady climb followed by a severe flattening. At some point you hit a stack size where the gain in equity from accumulating more chips becomes negligible. My question is, what is that stack size? There must be a mathematical way to calculate that, no?The difference between the DoNs and a regular STT is that because it is more difficult to finish in the top 3 than the top 5, the point at which the graph starts to flatten comes later (i.e., with a higher chip stack) in the STTs than in the DoNs.

That amount will vary based on the table dynamic. Theoretically if your table was loose enough, it would be valid to never play a hand.

[droberts 3]

how is amassing chips not part of the goal. yes u are trying to outlast people, but if u play super tight the chips may disperse evenly among the table and all of a sudden ur just an average stack.If u have a large chip lead u can obviously take a risk or 2 and if it fails u can slow down. My method has worked for me to perfection. I have cashed in every DoN ive played so far and u cant disagree with results.

[jmbreslin 0]

How many have you played?The point is you don't need to keep accumulating chips. You only have to finish top 5, and a stack of 3000-4000 will pretty much guarantee that. Risking chips you have to win chips you don't need is -ev.

[kkot 0]

how is amassing chips not part of the goal. yes u are trying to outlast people, but if u play super tight the chips may disperse evenly among the table and all of a sudden ur just an average stack.If u have a large chip lead u can obviously take a risk or 2 and if it fails u can slow down. My method has worked for me to perfection. I have cashed in every DoN ive played so far and u cant disagree with results.

But if you have a large chip lead the chips that you are trying to win are just about worthless. The chips you lose have a much higher value.We either gain nothing or lose a chunk of our equity. Neither of those excite me too much.

[Biff Goods 0]

I have a 68% winrate in these over about 300 or so. I have played many of them where someone doubles up and sits out and let me tell you who usually goes out 6th. Someone up there said it all depends on table dynamics and it's so very true. You have to remember that there are 9 other players with the same "last longer" strategy as you. If a guy doubles up in the first three hands and then shuts down there are 8 or 9 other guys that are gonna eventually figure it out and take advantage of it. (examples: raising you out of your blind, folding mediocre situations cause they know you are eventually gonna get blinded out.) Another good point is....someone has to take these guys out for you to win. This includes you. You might be actually giving yourself less than the best chance to win if you don't play a single hand after you get up to a certain amount. Here is an example. Folds to cut off who shoves for 695...you are in the sb for 100 and you have 3100 behind and you have AJ? Are you advocating a fold here giving the cutoff a 500 chip pot including antes? I think that is a mistake.

[kkot 0]

Folds to cut off who shoves for 695...you are in the sb for 100 and you have 3100 behind and you have AJ? Are you advocating a fold here giving the cutoff a 500 chip pot including antes? I think that is a mistake.

It depends on the other stacks.It could be a clear fold in some cases, and a marginal call in others. Yes, somebody has to eliminate them, but it doesn't have to be you.You have to remember that in DONs especially, the chips you gain are worth less than the chips you have. This sentence is always always always going to be true when you have a large stack in these.

[AdamC 0]

Very mich agreed. The mistake that Biff sees is right there in his words. The people who bubble are the oens who double and then sit out. The majority here have advocated doubling + some before sitting. That's the difference and it's all the the difference you need. I preferably hit about 3500 before I consider sitting. Preferably above that, 3600-3800 somewhere.

[jmbreslin 0]

I never advocated sitting out, what I meant by shutting down was going into uber-tight mode. I never sit out in tournaments.

[MovingIn 0]

Well, if you play on with a very nitty range, like AA-JJ, AK, then you may as well be sitting out.