To The Bush Haters

[Loismustdie 0]

Okay, I'll give you one.SwedenThey don't kill their own people with the death penalty, they don't kill people in other countries for geopolitical reasons ( not that there aren't legitimate reasons for countries to do this at times ), they don't allow any of their own citizens to go without basic healthcare and they as a nation give more money in International Aid on a per-capita and percentage of national wealth basis than pretty much any other nation.You see my problem is this stupid sort of comparison.The reality is that it's much easier for smaller nations to have policies that are friendlier to life than a Superpower like the US. Sometimes being a Superpower is messy and people will die. You embrace the market and sometimes the market is messy and the disenfranchised will fall by the wayside. This is why a nanny state like Sweden is going to care for those people more than a country like the US.If you want to make a claim that the average middle class and above American gives more to charity than people from other countries in the same socio-economic situation that is a point that is probably true and can be defended. Making a statement that the United States cares more about life than any other country in the World is truly stupid.

Understand I am not trying to make the case that the U.S. is numero uno. That being said, considering our arms wide open approach to illegal immigration I am 100% certain no one comes close to what we spend taking care of other nations citizens, I would be surprised if anyone came close to 50% of what we do. And this whole thing about no available healthcare needs to stop. Healthcare is available to 100% of U.S. an Non US citizens, just walk into a hospital. If it's life threatening you will be cared for regardless of ability to pay, if it's not you will fill out some paperwork and apply for the programs that are available, or be billed, which you can pay off at what you can afford. I mean, if healthcare was as sparse as some of you would like to believe we would just be dropping dead in droves. If the U.S. could take a stand against abortion I would agree with the sentiment that we care more than any, but we do not so I can't say that at this time, and of course the lord and master made that situation much worse within days of taking office. He's a winner, that one, a true caring soul.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

And I'm not just asking it of Republicans but of anyone who considers themselves led by that Christian doctrine. I'm trying to imagine what it would mean to really live as though that mattered, what kind of world and what kind of government we would have.

Well, no, most don't come close to living up to the standard of the Christian doctrine. The person that came the closest was a Hindu-- Ghandi(There are actually several Christians cannonized as Saints from throughout the world but non Catholics wouldn't have heard of most of them).It is important to recognize that a part of Christian doctrine teaches that it is impossible for anyone to live totally up to the standard Jesus set.

Or do you think he meant, "have some squishy kind of emotional "luv" for them, but don't actually express that in any concrete way that might cost you money or comfort"?

No, he most certainly meant the opposite of "have some squishy kind of emotional "luv" for them, but don't actually express that in any concrete way that might cost you money or comfort"?I am still confused why you are singling out Christians and Americans. Sure you can find imperfection in Christians and Americans, does that make them unique?

SB's post was an American questioning whether a lot of the political actions of Christian Americans are consistent with some of the love thy neighbour teachings that most Christians believe in. Where you are getting anti-American rhetoric from is beyond me.Her points weren't stupid and your answers to her weren't stupid except for your statement that the US cares more about life than any other nation in the World. It was that statement which got me going for the reasons that I've posted about above.

I wasn't talking about rhetoric from her post though that kind of stuff feeds anti-Americanism. I actually do think the US cares as much or more than any other country in the world. I guess it is silly to argue that, but I think it is silly to try and make a point that Americans, especially Christian Americans don't value the lives of others. I understand a little better the context of where she was coming from after reading her follow up post.

[Loismustdie 0]

Well, no, most don't come close to living up to the standard of the Christian doctrine. The person that came the closest was a Hindu-- Ghandi(There are actually several Christians cannonized as Saints from throughout the world but non Catholics wouldn't have heard of most of them).It is important to recognize that a part of Christian doctrine teaches that it is impossible for anyone to live totally up to the standard Jesus set. No, he most certainly meant the opposite of "have some squishy kind of emotional "luv" for them, but don't actually express that in any concrete way that might cost you money or comfort"?I am still confused why you are singling out Christians and Americans. Sure you can find imperfection in Christians and Americans, does that make them unique? I wasn't talking about rhetoric from her post though that kind of stuff feeds anti-Americanism. I actually do think the US cares as much or more than any other country in the world. I guess it is silly to argue that, but I think it is silly to try and make a point that Americans, especially Christian Americans don't value the lives of others. I understand a little better the context of where she was coming from after reading her follow up post.

I hate to get into a religous thing on this site anymore but Mr. Donkey is absolutely correct about what he said- one of the caveats in christ doctrine was that you would not be able to be christlike, it was all about the effort. The glory is in the efforts. Now, addressing a small portion of what SB said, the government will never be able to live a christlike existence, because what the offices itself offer are counterproductive to christianity. Mainly, power, it corrupts and it corrupts all, show me an uncorrupted person with power and I will show you how that someone no longer has power. Choices must be made in government that a christian cannot be privvy to in good conscience, it's just a bad mix.

[KramitDaToad 0]

lets talk about $$ both sent over seas by our governemnt and personal choice...the conversation will be short and sweet. Percentages are what you make of them...business people no this and we use them to our adavantage everyday...if possible. I would certainly take 10 percent of million over 20 percent of 250k...but you stick with the graphs.

No one is arguing that the US donates a huge amount and should be proud of that, however in terms of fulfilling potential, of making sacrifices, of actual generosity, the US is not pulling it's weight. So claims of "we are the most generous" are quite hollow.Who is more generous, the millionaire that gives you $100 or the guy with next to no money that gives you $1?

[Zealous Donkey 0]

No one is arguing that the US donates a huge amount and should be proud of that, however in terms of fulfilling potential, of making sacrifices, of actual generosity, the US is not pulling it's weight. So claims of "we are the most generous" are quite hollow.Who is more generous, the millionaire that gives you $100 or the guy with next to no money that gives you $1?

The US has sacrificed more than any other country in the world to battle terrorism. Over 3000 lives. Of couse it easy to sit back and call the US war mongars and pretend that Islamic fundementlism isn't really a problem. Unfortunately for Europe, they are in for a rude awakening. Who is more generous, the millionaire that gives you $100 or the guy with next to no money that gives you $1?Or the guy who gives up his life for you.

[Loismustdie 0]

No one is arguing that the US donates a huge amount and should be proud of that, however in terms of fulfilling potential, of making sacrifices, of actual generosity, the US is not pulling it's weight. So claims of "we are the most generous" are quite hollow.Who is more generous, the millionaire that gives you $100 or the guy with next to no money that gives you $1?

This is as wrong as can be. Name one country who takes in more citizens of others whether we want to or not.

[Balloon guy 158]

No one is arguing that the US donates a huge amount and should be proud of that, however in terms of fulfilling potential, of making sacrifices, of actual generosity, the US is not pulling it's weight. So claims of "we are the most generous" are quite hollow.Who is more generous, the millionaire that gives you $100 or the guy with next to no money that gives you $1?

Can you feed your family with $1 and good intentions?You are trying to interject a Biblical principle into your desire to show that the US is not as good as we are.you are failing

[Balloon guy 158]

Okay, I'll give you one.SwedenThey don't kill their own people with the death penalty, they don't kill people in other countries for geopolitical reasons ( not that there aren't legitimate reasons for countries to do this at times ), they don't allow any of their own citizens to go without basic healthcare and they as a nation give more money in International Aid on a per-capita and percentage of national wealth basis than pretty much any other nation.You see my problem is this stupid sort of comparison.The reality is that it's much easier for smaller nations to have policies that are friendlier to life than a Superpower like the US. Sometimes being a Superpower is messy and people will die. You embrace the market and sometimes the market is messy and the disenfranchised will fall by the wayside. This is why a nanny state like Sweden is going to care for those people more than a country like the US.If you want to make a claim that the average middle class and above American gives more to charity than people from other countries in the same socio-economic situation that is a point that is probably true and can be defended. Making a statement that the United States cares more about life than any other country in the World is truly stupid.

When I was touring the Baltic I noticed one consistant theme in every country we visited. While telling of their history, the guides would always included the timeline of when they defeated the Swedish invaders who took over thier land...Swedes were a violent people for centuriesThen there's ABBAand Zeatrix

[akoff 0]

No one is arguing that the US donates a huge amount and should be proud of that, however in terms of fulfilling potential, of making sacrifices, of actual generosity, the US is not pulling it's weight. So claims of "we are the most generous" are quite hollow.Who is more generous, the millionaire that gives you $100 or the guy with next to no money that gives you $1?

100>1 and don't even start about weight pulling, not only is the US pulling its weight they pull for most of the world...i would be happy to have everyone pull their own. Our $$ would go down quite a bit!!

[FCP Bob 1,312]

The US has sacrificed more than any other country in the world to battle terrorism. Over 3000 lives. Of couse it easy to sit back and call the US war mongars and pretend that Islamic fundementlism isn't really a problem. Unfortunately for Europe, they are in for a rude awakening. Who is more generous, the millionaire that gives you $100 or the guy with next to no money that gives you $1?Or the guy who gives up his life for you.

What the heck are you talking about.He was talking about Foreign Aid for humanitarian reasons and you're talking about 9/11.And the US has not suffered nearly as much as a country like India has at the hands of terrorists.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

What the heck are you talking about.He was talking about Foreign Aid for humanitarian reasons and you're talking about 9/11.And the US has not suffered nearly as much as a country like India has at the hands of terrorists.

He mentioned "making sacrifices" and pulling weight. I am talking about the blood sacrifice American soldiers have made fighting terrorists. When I said 3000 I wasn't talking about 911 victims, I was talking about soldier deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq. I think I got the number I wrong. I will edit when I get the correct number.

[vbnautilus 48]

And the US has not suffered nearly as much as a country like India has at the hands of terrorists.

I just found this statement rather silly especially in the midst of your (valid) point about silly comparisons between countries. There is obviously no terrorist attack in india that comes close to the cost in money and lives of 9/11. They don't even have buildings worth as much as the WTC over there. Sure there are small, frequent attacks, but I don't even think they are going to add up to our 3K+ loss of lives if you look at the last 10 years. At any rate, its a pointless comparison.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

He mentioned "making sacrifices" and pulling weight. I am talking about the blood sacrifice American soldiers have made fighting terrorists. When I said 3000 I wasn't talking about 911 victims, I was talking about soldier deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq. I think I got the number I wrong. I will edit when I get the correct number.

Well I hope you do realize that there weren't any terrorists in Iraq until the US invasion.There was a common dictatorship that did some really really bad things to it's own citizens and for the usual reasons of megalomania and power hunger occasionally attacked it's neighbours.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I just found this statement rather silly especially in the midst of your (valid) point about silly comparisons between countries. There is obviously no terrorist attack in india that comes close to the cost in money and lives of 9/11. They don't even have buildings worth as much as the WTC over there. Sure there are small, frequent attacks, but I don't even think they are going to add up to our 3K+ loss of lives if you look at the last 10 years. At any rate, its a pointless comparison.

Read up on your modern history of India and then tell me that terrorism has had a greater impact in the United States than it has in India.In just Jammu and Kashmir tens of thousands of people have lost their lives. Then add in all the other trouble spots.The reason I brought up India was in response to the silly statement that the US has suffered more at the hands of terrorists than any other country. There are countries in the World who have had their entire fabric affected.I don't want to minimize the tradgedy of 9/11 and how many Americans feel truly violated and angry over it but in those reactions and the over reactions of the US Gov't are exactly what the people who were behind 9/11 wanted.Here's a wiki link to some of the Indian issues.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_India

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Well I hope you do realize that there weren't any terrorists in Iraq until the US invasion.There was a common dictatorship that did some really really bad things to it's own citizens and for the usual reasons of megalomania and power hunger occasionally attacked it's neithbours.

5000 is closer to the correct number of US soldiers who have died in the war on terror. Iraq was a state sponsor of terror, though they weren't involved directly in the 911 attacks.Regardless of what you think about the war in Iraq, I think we can agree it was a good thing to get rid of Saddam. Though I am reminded of story about the Zen master and the little boy. <--(Charlie Wilson's war reference)

[FCP Bob 1,312]

He mentioned "making sacrifices" and pulling weight. I am talking about the blood sacrifice American soldiers have made fighting terrorists. When I said 3000 I wasn't talking about 911 victims, I was talking about soldier deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq. I think I got the number I wrong. I will edit when I get the correct number.

A good source for casulties in Iraq and Afghanistan are the links below.http://icasualties.org/Iraq/DeathsByCountry.aspxhttp://icasualties.org/OEF/ByNationality.aspx

[Zealous Donkey 0]

The reason I brought up India was in response to the silly statement that the US has suffered more at the hands of terrorists than any other country. There are countries in the World who have had their entire fabric affected.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_India

I never made such a statement which I thought I clarified in my last post.

A good source for casulties in Iraq and Afghanistan are the links below.http://icasualties.org/Iraq/DeathsByCountry.aspxhttp://icasualties.org/OEF/ByNationality.aspx

yes those are the ones I used to come up with 5000. I don't know if all 5000 are KIA.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I never made such a statement which I thought I clarified in my last post. yes those are the ones I used to come up with 5000. I don't know if all 5000 are KIA.

I don't actually disagree with the core of most of what you've posted, just some of the rhetoric that you've used.

[Nimue1995 1]

Can you feed your family with $1 and good intentions?You are trying to interject a Biblical principle into your desire to show that the US is not as good as we are.you are failing

You were obviously absent from Sunday School when they taught about the Widow's Mite. When it comes to monetary sacrifice the percentage matters both here and in the hereafter. You get no points for giving if that giving doesn't cost you anything. And by the way, a dollar goes a long way when you're buying mac & cheese.

[vbnautilus 48]

Read up on your modern history of India and then tell me that terrorism has had a greater impact in the United States than it has in India.In just Jammu and Kashmir tens of thousands of people have lost their lives. Then add in all the other trouble spots.The reason I brought up India was in response to the silly statement that the US has suffered more at the hands of terrorists than any other country. There are countries in the World who have had their entire fabric affected.I don't want to minimize the tradgedy of 9/11 and how many Americans feel truly violated and angry over it but in those reactions and the over reactions of the US Gov't are exactly what the people who were behind 9/11 wanted.Here's a wiki link to some of the Indian issues.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_India

I'm closely familiar with Indian history. I just think it's silly to compare the amount of suffering one people has had versus another, since there is really no metric unit for that. Your rephrasing in this second quote to "had an impact" is still questionable, but at least it's discussable that way.

[Potomophobia 17]

my life was a whole hell of a lot better in 1998. I was in high school, lived with my parents, didn't have a job, drank whenever I wanted to, hung out with girls... man, I'm not opening this thread anymore.

Best post in this thread.

[KramitDaToad 0]

The US has sacrificed more than any other country in the world to battle terrorism. Over 3000 lives. Of couse it easy to sit back and call the US war mongars and pretend that Islamic fundementlism isn't really a problem. Unfortunately for Europe, they are in for a rude awakening. Who is more generous, the millionaire that gives you $100 or the guy with next to no money that gives you $1?Or the guy who gives up his life for you.

This is as wrong as can be. Name one country who takes in more citizens of others whether we want to or not.

Can you feed your family with $1 and good intentions?You are trying to interject a Biblical principle into your desire to show that the US is not as good as we are.you are failing

100>1 and don't even start about weight pulling, not only is the US pulling its weight they pull for most of the world...i would be happy to have everyone pull their own. Our $$ would go down quite a bit!!

The point of topic was the US's contribution on a GDP basis. i.e. overall 'generosity' as far as foriegn aid goes. Bob claimed the US was not too good here. BG said he would quite happily compare any 3 nations on that basis implying the US was #1 which it obviously isn't even close to being.If you want to meander off topic we can talk about the number of beached whales pushed back into the ocean or other similarly irrelevant stats, or you could show some integrity and actually admit that Bob was correct.Pride in one's country is one thing. Allowing it to stop you facing facts is just silly.

[brvheart 1,752]

I'm not going to quote the many posts that I would like to respond too. It's better if I stay out of discussions that will get me passionate. I just want to say this to SB and ZD.Jesus wouldn't be involved in politics if he was alive today because it would alienate people. Also, Jesus didn't set up a religion and would be very disappointed in many decisions made in his name.

[mk 11]

Jesus wouldn't be involved in politics if he was alive today because it would alienate people.

lol

[Balloon guy 158]

The point of topic was the US's contribution on a GDP basis. i.e. overall 'generosity' as far as foriegn aid goes. Bob claimed the US was not too good here. BG said he would quite happily compare any 3 nations on that basis implying the US was #1 which it obviously isn't even close to being.If you want to meander off topic we can talk about the number of beached whales pushed back into the ocean or other similarly irrelevant stats, or you could show some integrity and actually admit that Bob was correct.Pride in one's country is one thing. Allowing it to stop you facing facts is just silly.

World Top 10 - Foreign Aid Doners Countries Map Country In Billion Dollars United States 12.9 Japan 9.2 Germany 5.4 France 5.2 United Kingdom 4.8 Netherlands 3.4 Italy 2.3 Canada 2.0 Sweden 1.8 Norway 1.8 This doesn't include our military spending that allows most of the world to spend less on their military since the USofA is there to protect them and keep the bogey man away. Add in that and I would even compare the 'percentages' that you want to use to ignore reality.If Japan can spend 50% less on their military, they have freed up money that allows them to spend elsewhere. They get the credit, but we don't. That's why you failed.