Universal Health Care...

[hblask 1]

We could implement your ideas, remove all price constraints, then wait 20 years for the system to shake itself out, determine the winners and losers and arrive at something resembling a free market balance, but there is no guarantee- or even distant implication- that the endgame will produce anything resembling an optimal outcome, in terms of solving the problems we face (without even bothering to consider the Pandoras box of new problems and unintended consequences this might give rise to)

Food is more necessary for life on a day-to-day basis than medicine. Over 98% of medical care is non-emergency care. So why don't all your objections apply even more to food than they do to medicine?If you can't give a clear answer to that question, you need to rethink your ideas.

[hblask 1]

So what happens if a state were to move toward a more free market health care system? It can't possibly work, right?A few years ago Maine created strict laws designed to control costs and increase coverage. 4 of the 5 companies left the state.Now, much of that law was rolled back, and prices are dropping dramatically. And that's not even a free market yet, it's just a small step in that direction. Think what could happen if companies were allowed to actually compete.

[AmScray 355]

Ah, the old "who will build the roads" ploy. Seriously, I thought you were a little more advanced in your thinking than that.

Ploy?Pursuant to the ideals advanced by people like yourself, roads would be built by private corporations who would install toll booths for every stretch they own and charge whatever they pleased. Really, there's absolutely nothing inherent to anarchistic free-market Libertarianism that can refute this since it's absolutely native to that position, or, you can refute it, but in doing so you're going to look like a huge double-talking retard on health care.

[AmScray 355]

Food is more necessary for life on a day-to-day basis than medicine. Over 98% of medical care is non-emergency care. So why don't all your objections apply even more to food than they do to medicine?If you can't give a clear answer to that question, you need to rethink your ideas.

If Monsanto, ADM and ConAgra charged people $10,000 for access to any foods containing Vitamin C and there were no viable market or subsistence based alternatives (ie- I can't plant an Endocrinologist tree in my back yard) and for whatever reason, large groups of people were somehow ineligible to purchase food on the basis of their eating history- or society would provide them with the food they needed but it would result in bankruptcy- yes, I would absolutely support drastic governmental intervention to nationalize food production.

[AmScray 355]

So what happens if a state were to move toward a more free market health care system? It can't possibly work, right?A few years ago Maine created strict laws designed to control costs and increase coverage. 4 of the 5 companies left the state.Now, much of that law was rolled back, and prices are dropping dramatically. And that's not even a free market yet, it's just a small step in that direction. Think what could happen if companies were allowed to actually compete.

Agree with this. You've answered 10% of the question. Now, for the other 90%.

[AmScray 355]

Pretending you can pick and choose the best from each system is just silly, it's college freshman thinking.

It's the basis for Japan.

[BaseJester 1]

. . . and for whatever reason, large groups of people were somehow ineligible to purchase food on the basis of their eating history-

You're conflating health care with health insurance in this analogy.

[hblask 1]

Ploy?Pursuant to the ideals advanced by people like yourself, roads would be built by private corporations who would install toll booths for every stretch they own and charge whatever they pleased. Really, there's absolutely nothing inherent to anarchistic free-market Libertarianism that can refute this since it's absolutely native to that position, or, you can refute it, but in doing so you're going to look like a huge double-talking retard on health care.

Except, you know, reality. There are a number of private toll roads now in the US that are doing quite well, and there aren't toll booths every few feet on them.

[hblask 1]

If Monsanto, ADM and ConAgra charged people $10,000 for access to any foods containing Vitamin C and there were no viable market or subsistence based alternatives (ie- I can't plant an Endocrinologist tree in my back yard) and for whatever reason, large groups of people were somehow ineligible to purchase food on the basis of their eating history- or society would provide them with the food they needed but it would result in bankruptcy- yes, I would absolutely support drastic governmental intervention to nationalize food production.

If if if... if the world weren't anything like it is, then it would not be anything like it is.The existence of our current population without starvation is directly tied to the existence of major corporations doing things that you claim in the healthcare marekt they will not. The problems you discuss in medicine exist BECAUSE OF regulatory intervention in free markets. I am continuously amused by people who point to the most regulated industries -- cable, electric, education, and medicine -- as examples of why free markets don't work, while ignoring the fact that the exact same hurdles and issues have been solved by free markets thousands of times in unregulated industries.Seriously, make an attempt. A lame joke about "planting an endocrinologist" in your back yard is an evasion, not a serious reply. You can't plant a tree that produces bananas 365 days per year in your back yard either, and you can't plant an international transportation system that is capable of feeding millions in your back yard, either.

[hblask 1]

It's the basis for Japan.

You mean economically stagnant Japan that has had basically zero growth for 15 years and where pregnant women die in the street after being turned away from seven hospitals?Seriously, that's your example? LOL

[AmScray 355]

Except, you know, reality. There are a number of private toll roads now in the US that are doing quite well, and there aren't toll booths every few feet on them.

Just so we're on the same page here and you can't dance away from your own implications:You think that private toll roads are an adequate characterization of what the US public road system 'could aspire to'? Or that the private toll road system that exists now is an example of how things would look of all roads had been left to private industry? Please just answer those questions clearly.

[AmScray 355]

If if if... if the world weren't anything like it is, then it would not be anything like it is.

****. Are you seriously this dumb? You proposed a rhetorical question and I gave a rhetorical answer, which kind of eliminates you being able to lament the existence of hypothesis, since the answer was in response to your own ground rules.Retard.

[AmScray 355]

You mean economically stagnant Japan that has had basically zero growth for 15 years and where pregnant women die in the street after being turned away from seven hospitals?Seriously, that's your example? LOL

OK, again, you and anecdotes. If I could pick one metric to appraise the general caliber of someones intellect, it would be how influential anecdotes are to their broader positions and outlook. You're pretty much dumber than most primates. Of course there are anecdotes from any country on earth. All you have to go is go to google and type in (country name) + (anecdotal description). For example, (country) + "denied medical treatment".As far as Japans economic stagnation, that's completely true, but it's partly based on the fact that it gets damn hard to achieve meaningful growth once your standard of living and population reach a certain point. There's still no challenging their methodology, which is what you're attempting to do.You are a deluded ideologue. What that means is that your entire existence is tucked safely in the realm of theory. You can always enjoy the role of gadfly, but will never be able to propose a workable solution (even though you sincerely believe that reciting mountainous ideologies are "workable solutions") When confronted with fact or reality that doesn't jive with your ideals, you bounce back and forth between insanely isolated anecdotes (to 'evidence' your position) and hyperbolically broad idealism (to articulate your position) while failing to realize that isn't a workable methodology. This is why Large L Libertarianism has zero traction anywhere on earth. It's the right wing equivalent of 'perfect world idealism' similar to what we see from their failed counterparts on the left (Communists) Like, in this example, we have you criticizing those subhuman monkeys in Japan. Presumably, you'd do the same for those in Norway, or England, or France, or anywhere cited as a working example of a system that doesn't jive with Libertarian delusions. You'd run to Google and type in "Sweden" + " Denied Health Care" and post an anecdote about this poor legless man in Nyköping who was denied a wheelchair, then smugly delude yourself into believing you've 'made a point'.Really, you are an example of stupid people being unaware that they're stupid, but they're still allowed to roam freely in the world, forcing everyone to endure their dumb shit.

[hblask 1]

Just so we're on the same page here and you can't dance away from your own implications:You think that private toll roads are an adequate characterization of what the US public road system 'could aspire to'?Or that the private toll road system that exists now is an example of how things would look of all roads had been left to private industry?Please just answer those questions clearly.

I think most of our roads could be privatized or a private-public partnership. And yes, a free market that includes congestion-level pricing is certainly scalable. The gas tax is a completely inadequate means of funding roads, and a toll system, whether private, private-public, or public, would solve most of the issues of gridlock that exist in every major city.

[hblask 1]

****. Are you seriously this dumb? You proposed a rhetorical question and I gave a rhetorical answer, which kind of eliminates you being able to lament the existence of hypothesis, since the answer was in response to your own ground rules.Retard.

It wasn't a rhetorical question, it was an important fundament question about markets. Over any given 3 month or six month or 12 month period, food is more important to 99% of the population than health care. Yet the claims of why health care markets don't work is because they are a matter of life and death. Yet clearly that is less the case for the vast majority of the population than it is for food.So why don't food producers charge $1000 for a box of rice? Why don't they gouge people, knowing their life is on the line.If you cannot provide a clear answer to such a fundamental question, then you really shouldn't discuss economics in a public forum (unless it is just for your education, of course -- which may be the case here).And no, the insult doesn't cause me to forget that you ignored and avoided the question.

[hblask 1]

OK, again, you and anecdotes.If I could pick one metric to appraise the general caliber of someones intellect, it would be how influential anecdotes are to their broader positions and outlook.You're pretty much dumber than most primates.

I provided you with a page of real world results, broken into system vs anecdotal evidence. You danced and hemmed and hawed and basically ignored the reality.But I guess you feel if you throw enough insults you can ignore stuff? Sorry, doesn't work that way.

Of course there are anecdotes from any country on earth. All you have to go is go to google and type in (country name) + (anecdotal description). For example, (country) + "denied medical treatment".

And yet, I've asked again and again for a list of 300 people -- one one-millionth of the US population -- that meets 4 conditions for inadequate care. I'd accept (documented) anecdotes. Care to guess what the count is up to?

As far as Japans economic stagnation, that's completely true, but it's partly based on the fact that it gets damn hard to achieve meaningful growth once your standard of living and population reach a certain point. There's still no challenging their methodology, which is what you're attempting to do.

Their standard of living was still below ours when their economic crisis hit.

Like, in this example, we have you criticizing those subhuman monkeys in Japan. Presumably, you'd do the same for those in Norway, or England, or France, or anywhere cited as a working example of a system that doesn't jive with Libertarian delusions. You'd run to Google and type in "Sweden" + " Denied Health Care" and post an anecdote about this poor legless man in Nyköping who was denied a wheelchair, then smugly delude yourself into believing you've 'made a point'.Really, you are an example of stupid people being unaware that they're stupid, but they're still allowed to roam freely in the world, forcing everyone to endure their dumb shit.

And yet, I'm still waiting for evidence of the 1/1,000,000 of the population that is suffering due to our system. Four simple conditions that everyone should agree are reasonable to declare a crisis.I've show far more than that percentage in the socialized medicine countries, and that's with us subsidizing their R&D and their national defense. Just think if the pharmaceutical companies didn't have congress by the balls and they had to sell their drugs overseas for the actual cost instead of making us pay all the R&D.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

It wasn't a rhetorical question, it was an important fundament question about markets. Over any given 3 month or six month or 12 month period, food is more important to 99% of the population than health care. Yet the claims of why health care markets don't work is because they are a matter of life and death. Yet clearly that is less the case for the vast majority of the population than it is for food.So why don't food producers charge $1000 for a box of rice? Why don't they gouge people, knowing their life is on the line.If you cannot provide a clear answer to such a fundamental question, then you really shouldn't discuss economics in a public forum (unless it is just for your education, of course -- which may be the case here).And no, the insult doesn't cause me to forget that you ignored and avoided the question.

The markets for food and healthcare are fundamentally different on the supply side this is a very simple economic concept but makes your comparison not what you think it is.In a situation of extreme scarcity of food during famines or wars food does become priceless however and people will do everything up to and including killing and eating each other for it but during normal times there are vast substitutes for specific foods and a very large number of suppliers plus people have the ability to produce some of their food on their own. I can find mushrooms in the forest if I have to but I can't remove a brain tumor

[hblask 1]

The markets for food and healthcare are fundamentally different on the supply side this is a very simple economic concept but makes your comparison not what you think it is.In a situation of extreme scarcity of food during famines or wars food does become priceless however and people will do everything up to and including killing and eating each other for it but during normal times there are vast substitutes for specific foods and a very large number of suppliers plus people have the ability to produce some of their food on their own. I can find mushrooms in the forest if I have to but I can't remove a brain tumor

Over the last 100 years or so, which types of economic systems have produced massive food shortages, and which kind has adapted to rare catastrophic events?

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Over the last 100 years or so, which types of economic systems have produced massive food shortages, and which kind has adapted to rare catastrophic events?

Sigh

[hblask 1]

Sigh

So what, you wanted me to answer your final sentence again? I already replied to Scram about it, but here it goes in more detail:

during normal times there are vast substitutes for specific foods and a very large number of suppliers plus people have the ability to produce some of their food on their own. I can find mushrooms in the forest if I have to but I can't remove a brain tumor

Your ability to find mushrooms has a neglible effect on the food supply. The problem in our food chain is not getting one person through one day, it is getting the millions of people in our metropolitan areas enough food 365 days per year, every year. This doesn't happen because Joe Jersey grows tomatoes in his windowbox in NYC. it happens because someone found out they could make a profit by creating a worldwide distribution network that can bring fresh bananas to the world year round. And someone else found out that if they used a particular canning process, they could make a profit by giving people vegetables in their cupboard that lasted for years. And someone else found that if you took grains and baked them into flakes, people would buy them for breakfast. None of this has anything to do with the fear that someone would grow their own fruit tree. (In fact, if it did, it would be a pressure in the other direction. More competition = less likely to create a new product).There is one thing in common in all these cases: they saw a chance to make money. They didn't care if people died (well, maybe some of them). You don't create a business that costs millions of dollars just to prove you can do it. You do it for the profit.So, the question remains: why does it work for food -- something more vital to life than medicine -- but would NOT work for health care.And no, my ability to grow corn in my garden has no more impact than my ability to place a Band-Aid on a blister. The infrastructure to feed/treat one person is in no way related to the infrastructure to feed/treat a million people. It's not the same problem.

[hblask 1]

And I should add, this is why it is relevant which economic systems have produced frequent famines and which have not. A robust economy that provides plentitude for all has only occurred under one type of system.

[akoff 0]

This morning I had a meeting with our Healthcare brokers, I spend 2 hours getting the facts on costs, options (public and private exchanges, downsizing and or total withdraw) and the future of healthcare…at least on a payment level. It is staggering what a mess this is going to be, not only from a health perspective but from an employment and also as part of a business model.

 

The cold reality is the whole thing is going to be a trainwreck and it is going to cost the common worker more out of his pocket then it ever has in the past, it is going to limit hours worked, it is going to limit hiring and will limit the size of which small business is going to grow. One of the big number is now 50…as in stay under 50 employees and life is a much simpler place and cheaper. Create new companies and send work back and forth to them…5 companies with 240 employees is much better than 1 company with 240.

 

As always the attorneys (thank god I have good one) will become more important in set up and corporate structure - the working man is going to hold his ankles…BHO screwed his base harder than they could ever imagine and they are too dumb to know it. I guess they deserve it. Hope and change...funny.

[Balloon guy 158]

Yea but Obamacare is Bush's fault...?

[akoff 0]

Yea but Obamacare is Bush's fault...?

 

it always is...did you hear Bush shutdown a plant WI...seems he did it because he hates people. LOL democrats.

 

seriously this healthcare bill really is a mess

[brvheart 1,752]

My new doctor based on 12 surveys:

 

Wait Time:

Once you arrive for a scheduled appointment, how long do you have to wait (including waiting room and exam room) before you see this provider:

 

 

Under 10 Minutes

 

 

 

Note: 10 to 15 Minutes National Average