did i just stumble onto something very profitable?

[PrtyPSux 0]

Heads Up Cash Games! holy crap I think they're the most profitable thing online! (btw, I just finished writing and its pretty long, but if you are interested in H.U. games hopefully this will help or you can relate to what I wrote... If not then at least it could create some good debates....enjoy :-) ) Some of you mighthave read my previous post about not being able to beat this one really bad player heads up..some of you said that maybe it was because I sucked. I thought it might be true so I decided to play 1 game heads up on saturday at pokerroom. I sat down at the .25-.50 NL table w/ $30 (more than enough BTW) and dude sits with $30 also, in about 10 minutes I bust him. he rebuys for 2o and I bust him a few hands later, he leaves and Im about $40 (I'll get into the rake part later). So what I thought would be one match to prove my HU game is worthy turned out to be a whole weekend of heads up play. Luckily after the first 3 matches I decided to keep record, so here is a brief summary of what happened. (followed by my thoughts and comments on Heads Up online cash games, for anyone that is interested)1.- guy buys in for 30 busts and rebuys for 20..busts (I didnt write the details on this one) ........Total net profit: about $402.- guy buys in for 10, calls my all in preflop with 55, I had QQ...... TNP: about 483.- guy buys in for 15 busts..this one took me a while because I lost a $10 pot to him, so we were even for a while.. the rake got the best of us... ...TNP: about 554.- This is where the records started and by far the best match. a player sits and right away I can tell he is a weak bluffer (dont know the accurate term for this but he folds to raises but bluffs often.. perfect person to pay off your blinds while you wait for a trap). He bought in for the max $50 I had $30 and whoever said that H.U. the size of your stack gives you a huge edge, they werent reffering to these games. he bought in 3 times. (this match took about an hour and a half because I had to wait for hands. the rake took like 20 bucks maybe more by the end.)... TNP: about 185-ish.5.- a guy sits in for ten, I win about $7........TNP: about 192ish6.- a guy sits with 50, he plays like the 4th guy except he is a bit looser on his calls and more agressive on his bluffs (calls a $10 river raise with TP when Im representing a made flush on the end, and he goes all in on the river w/ nuthin representing a flush)he wasn't easy to beat, probably my toughest opponent, I busted him early at first but when he rebought he brought my stack down to were I started, so I bought in for the max (not because I was tilting, but because in this case I felt that with a larger stack I can handle him better. and it worked) I busted him for his 2 buy ins and for one last one when I made a flush on the turn, and he had a set.... TNP: about 320 7.- gross, some dude buys in for 5, I say no cuz its not worth it but the computer gives me my cards and says it will seat me out when the hand is finished. I get 99 figure I can push, hell fold and Ill sit out, he calls w/ 2/3 and I double him up, he then calls w/ J/10 doubles up again, then leaves.....TNP: about 3008.- even grosser I have 50 at the table cuz I forgot to cash out, a dude sits w/ 50. I get KK raise, get reraised like 10..I push he has QQ flops a set and I lose..he leaves..TNP: about 2509.- win 30....tnp 28010.- lose 30 ...TNP in 10 matches and about 8hrs total is $250--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So thats my summary, and this Is what I learned.1.- The rake is a disadvantage, if a player sits with 10 bucks its a race against the rake, If you sat in for 30 and give the other guy some slack, pretty soon the only money at the table will be your own.2.- Ego... this is a tough one for me, sometimes you'll sit with some one that you know you are better than, and when he busts you once or twice you have to evaluate your priorities (sp?) ..do you want to win money, or do you want to prove something.3.- I might get some flames for this but, IMHO I'll say it again IMHO! there are people that are too stupid to beat in one match...(remember, you are playing this guy and he can leave whenever) , I was playing one guy that I didnt add in my summary, who was a moron, he check called with 2 pair never raised, never bet, only check called, or check fold....now, yea, you can beat this guy in a 5 of 7 game, but with hundreds of hungry fish that just turned off the NBC coverage and want to play heads up.. why waist your time with this guy? ..I ended even with him in about 30 mins, and left.4.- Saturday night (12am-3 am) = drunk night,,,,,need I say more?5.- there are basically 2 players in this limit (at least from my short experience) the weak ones and the ones who bluff way too much,..fold two pair with these guys, you'll soon catch the nut flush and they'll bluff at that too!6.- the hit and runs...it will happen..walk it off, and keep goin.7.- steady blinds- with the blinds never raising you skill will dominate no doubt about it. if you are tricky and patient you will win most of these.8.- dont get too fancy, dont bet small on the river on a bluff cuz they'll think you want them to call, they wont and they will call. dont overbet too often with the nuts, they will fold.. likewise you will ocasionally run into a crafty opponent, these are fun because they think. get creative with these guys, but remember you wont find them often.9.- Study, and remember screennames, many of them play H.U. all day, if you remember them, you can make them lose all day.10.- be nice. the nicer you are the more they'll come back. Today I was playing with someone and I took her for 2 buy ins, when she had $12 left and I had $88, I started telling her what hands I had, she did the same and played about 20 more minutes with those 12 bucks, Im sure she wont deny me a game next time Im at the table.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Anyway, thats just what I learned these past couple of days, It might be because of the Heads up tourney on TV (which I havent caught btw, but I hear good things.) but a lot of people are willing to give there money away. give it a try, just make sure you dont play me in pokerroom, I'd like to stick with the incompetent opponents. hope this helped ..c ya.. :wink:

[custom36 5]

Variance will kick your ass eventually, but congrats on the big win.

[Suited_Up 2]

Go check out my blog, I just updated it and it might be an interest to you, similar revelation.

[PrtyPSux 0]

Variance will kick your ass eventually, but congrats on the big win.

In limit, maybe.. but NL heads up?...IMO its a lot easier to avoid variance than in ring games,,you can just manipulate people, If you go in with the nuts, and bluff when you know they wont call, its easy to win. Its not all about the cards and the math heads up NL man (again IMO). Variance means you stop catching cards, right? its the odds catching up... you dont need to have cards to beat most of these guys. Yes, skill loses to really dumb players that call with 23 suited till the river sometimes, but more often than not their str8s wont hit, if you can manipulate their odds by betting the pot you can make every time they call profitable. Not only that, but if you can make them fold a better hand than yours often enough, that will make you a lot of money too. Variance (along w/ my sh.itty play) is kicking my ass in Limit holdem, but does anyone else agree that variance is much less of a factor when playing NL heads up?(PS) Im not saying I am just going to do this from now on, but it is now certainly in my weekend play list...

[PrtyPSux 0]

{edit} wrote it twice

[PrtyPSux 0]

Go check out my blog, I just updated it and it might be an interest to you, similar revelation.

Just read it, good read, I agreed w/ mostly everything (I found it funny we even put the same closing about wanting to play fish). Do you think Sit N gos would be more profitable than cash games though? I guess the play is probably the same in both, in cash games there is more money at stake and you can make it faster. And the increasing blinds in the SNG's Im kinda iffy about, I guess ill have to try it to see how it goes. Also, the rake factor is a big issue in cash games, big enough to make SNG's worth while. I dunno though, what do you think?

[HomeRow 0]

As my first post, I'll just say that I don't usually play heads-up, but you inspired me. So I went and played a cheap one at UB and busted the guy in all of about 2 minutes, so my vote would be for SnG's, but not much experience either way.

[blackize 0]

With Sit and Gos there is less money to be had but you will also lose less to the rake. Depending on what site the Heads Up SnG is at and the structure there, there may be significantly more variance.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Heads Up Cash Games! holy crap I think they're the most profitable thing online! (btw, I just finished writing and its pretty long, but if you are interested in H.U. games hopefully this will help or you can relate to what I wrote... If not then at least it could create some good debates....enjoy :-) ) Some of you mighthave read my previous post about not being able to beat this one really bad player heads up..some of you said that maybe it was because I sucked. I thought it might be true so I decided to play 1 game heads up on saturday at pokerroom. I sat down at the .25-.50 NL table w/ $30 (more than enough BTW) and dude sits with $30 also, in about 10 minutes I bust him. he rebuys for 2o and I bust him a few hands later, he leaves and Im about $40 (I'll get into the rake part later). So what I thought would be one match to prove my HU game is worthy turned out to be a whole weekend of heads up play. Luckily after the first 3 matches I decided to keep record, so here is a brief summary of what happened. (followed by my thoughts and comments on Heads Up online cash games, for anyone that is interested)1.- guy buys in for 30 busts and rebuys for 20..busts (I didnt write the details on this one) ........Total net profit: about $402.- guy buys in for 10, calls my all in preflop with 55, I had QQ...... TNP: about 483.- guy buys in for 15 busts..this one took me a while because I lost a $10 pot to him, so we were even for a while.. the rake got the best of us... ...TNP: about 554.- This is where the records started and by far the best match. a player sits and right away I can tell he is a weak bluffer (dont know the accurate term for this but he folds to raises but bluffs often.. perfect person to pay off your blinds while you wait for a trap). He bought in for the max $50 I had $30 and whoever said that H.U. the size of your stack gives you a huge edge, they werent reffering to these games. he bought in 3 times. (this match took about an hour and a half because I had to wait for hands. the rake took like 20 bucks maybe more by the end.)... TNP: about 185-ish.5.- a guy sits in for ten, I win about $7........TNP: about 192ish6.- a guy sits with 50, he plays like the 4th guy except he is a bit looser on his calls and more agressive on his bluffs (calls a $10 river raise with TP when Im representing a made flush on the end, and he goes all in on the river w/ nuthin representing a flush)he wasn't easy to beat, probably my toughest opponent, I busted him early at first but when he rebought he brought my stack down to were I started, so I bought in for the max (not because I was tilting, but because in this case I felt that with a larger stack I can handle him better. and it worked) I busted him for his 2 buy ins and for one last one when I made a flush on the turn, and he had a set.... TNP: about 320 7.- gross, some dude buys in for 5, I say no cuz its not worth it but the computer gives me my cards and says it will seat me out when the hand is finished. I get 99 figure I can push, hell fold and Ill sit out, he calls w/ 2/3 and I double him up, he then calls w/ J/10 doubles up again, then leaves.....TNP: about 3008.- even grosser I have 50 at the table cuz I forgot to cash out, a dude sits w/ 50. I get KK raise, get reraised like 10..I push he has QQ flops a set and I lose..he leaves..TNP: about 2509.- win 30....tnp 28010.- lose 30 ...TNP in 10 matches and about 8hrs total is $250--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So thats my summary, and this Is what I learned.1.- The rake is a disadvantage, if a player sits with 10 bucks its a race against the rake, If you sat in for 30 and give the other guy some slack, pretty soon the only money at the table will be your own.2.- Ego... this is a tough one for me, sometimes you'll sit with some one that you know you are better than, and when he busts you once or twice you have to evaluate your priorities (sp?) ..do you want to win money, or do you want to prove something.3.- I might get some flames for this but, IMHO I'll say it again IMHO! there are people that are too stupid to beat in one match...(remember, you are playing this guy and he can leave whenever) , I was playing one guy that I didnt add in my summary, who was a moron, he check called with 2 pair never raised, never bet, only check called, or check fold....now, yea, you can beat this guy in a 5 of 7 game, but with hundreds of hungry fish that just turned off the NBC coverage and want to play heads up.. why waist your time with this guy? ..I ended even with him in about 30 mins, and left.4.- Saturday night (12am-3 am) = drunk night,,,,,need I say more?5.- there are basically 2 players in this limit (at least from my short experience) the weak ones and the ones who bluff way too much,..fold two pair with these guys, you'll soon catch the nut flush and they'll bluff at that too!6.- the hit and runs...it will happen..walk it off, and keep goin.7.- steady blinds- with the blinds never raising you skill will dominate no doubt about it. if you are tricky and patient you will win most of these.8.- dont get too fancy, dont bet small on the river on a bluff cuz they'll think you want them to call, they wont and they will call. dont overbet too often with the nuts, they will fold.. likewise you will ocasionally run into a crafty opponent, these are fun because they think. get creative with these guys, but remember you wont find them often.9.- Study, and remember screennames, many of them play H.U. all day, if you remember them, you can make them lose all day.10.- be nice. the nicer you are the more they'll come back. Today I was playing with someone and I took her for 2 buy ins, when she had $12 left and I had $88, I started telling her what hands I had, she did the same and played about 20 more minutes with those 12 bucks, Im sure she wont deny me a game next time Im at the table.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Anyway, thats just what I learned these past couple of days, It might be because of the Heads up tourney on TV (which I havent caught btw, but I hear good things.) but a lot of people are willing to give there money away. give it a try, just make sure you dont play me in pokerroom, I'd like to stick with the incompetent opponents. hope this helped ..c ya.. :wink:

Damn, I thought I was the only one who knew about these. Don't blow the secret!

[jsdastud 0]

Doyle's Room has very very soft heads up games. Wide range of amounts to play for. I have crushed the $5 heads up games. Players just seem to have no idea what they are doing.

[PrtyPSux 0]

Damn, I thought I was the only one who knew about these. Don't blow the secret!

there is plenty to go around

[Truckasaurus II 0]

I dipped my toe into HU O8 the other day and crushed 3-4 different people to varying amounts, pretty easy stuff.

[Suited_Up 2]

Go check out my blog, I just updated it and it might be an interest to you, similar revelation.

Just read it, good read, I agreed w/ mostly everything (I found it funny we even put the same closing about wanting to play fish). Do you think Sit N gos would be more profitable than cash games though? I guess the play is probably the same in both, in cash games there is more money at stake and you can make it faster. And the increasing blinds in the SNG's Im kinda iffy about, I guess ill have to try it to see how it goes. Also, the rake factor is a big issue in cash games, big enough to make SNG's worth while. I dunno though, what do you think?

Well, I would think the SnG's would take care of the rake problem, although it does kinda suck, because if you play 4 of them and happen to win 2 and then lose 2, you are down money. But if you can win consistently you should be doing fine. About the blinds... they seem to help me a little bit towards the end usually. That is if I don't take them out in the first round or two.... Because once the blinds get bigger, people either get super tight, or they get desperate and will push with less than great hands. So it's a great time to just wait and trap them with a big hand. What happens a lot, is if they sense weakness, they'll push with the small stack (assuming you can make sure you have the lead by this point).... so you do a lot of raising with things like K8, but a lot of limping with pairs and AK, AQ type hands... so when they think you're weak, you can call their all-in easily. Just sucks when they suckout. Most of the time though, they are so bad you never get where the blinds are really killing you. Only once has it happened, and it was to the point where we had to go all-in every hand, and luckily the few folds I did make saved enough chips and I came back and won after trading off all-ins for awhile.I really can't say which would be more profitable though. In the SnG's though, you have to be more careful about putting too much at risk, that's the real key... let them risk a lot when you have a hand, but when you don't, there's no need to risk it, as long as you think you can outplay them, you can just grind them down. There's also the factor that in the cash game, they could leave at any time.. but in the SnG, they are tied into a set amount, so that is a plus.

[Filesharer 0]

I'll just add my own experiences to this thread. I tried a heads-up experiment on pokerstars about two weeks ago. I wanted to clear the bonus, and thought it would be a good break from the usual games I played. I hopped on the waiting list for a $20 NL SnG and a $20 limit one. Unfortunately I ended up playing both simultaneously, which wasn't a great idea!NL isn't my game, and the guy was pretty good. He dispatched me quite quickly, although I'm sure he was hitting hands while I wasn't making anything. The limit player was a total maniac, and I beat her in about 20 minutes, which is super quick for a limit game. Easiest 19.50 I ever made. BTW, the picture she had up showed a morbidly obese woman, which I find interesting as it's probably a clue as to what kind of people maniacs are.Then I played two $50 limit games (not at the same time), and won one, lost one. The player I beat was pretty poor; way to aggressive and quite predictable. The guy I lost to was totally weak-tight, and I'm still trying to figure out how I lost to him.Overall it was fun but quite tiring, and if you multi-table like I do it's not going to be as profitable as playing four tables of shorthanded or what have you.