These Gas Prices Are Killing Me

[Don Giovanni 0]

Whiffed on that one pal - I did say IF we are using them up (and I am not so sure we are), why not put the money towards alternate methods of fueling travel - BUT do so because we are running out of resources, not because a bunch of self-interest scammers decide they want to create an artificial crisis and make money off of it by creating this carbon credit fiasco. I don't know how I can be any more clear there - you are trying to put words in my mouth (i.e. no thought to the future). Read a bit more carefully next time.Well actually I would suggest that YOU are everything that is wrong with the world. Got any plans to get the economy going while simultaneously pumping up the cost of energy in the name of CC? Just keep on believing that the IPCC guys actually know what they are talking about. We can have a good discussion someday on the breadline.

the reason to start using alternative and renewable sources of energy is not because oil may be running out. that has nothing to do with it. the fact that you think this is the issue means you dont understand whats going on and what our civilization needs to do to progress. your plan for the economy seems to be continuing to buy massive amounts of a polluting substance from countries that are our enemies. my plan is to evolve to the next level, technologically and as a society. this is beyond your range of thinking, and i can understand that i guess. you keep worrying about your conspiracy theories and superstitions. eventually the world will leave you behind.

[SCYUKON 0]

the reason to start using alternative and renewable sources of energy is not because oil may be running out. that has nothing to do with it. the fact that you think this is the issue means you dont understand whats going on and what our civilization needs to do to progress. your plan for the economy seems to be continuing to buy massive amounts of a polluting substance from countries that are our enemies. my plan is to evolve to the next level, technologically and as a society. this is beyond your range of thinking, and i can understand that i guess. you keep worrying about your conspiracy theories and superstitions. eventually the world will leave you behind.

LOL in the largest font I can find to your bolded comment. I realize what is going on, we are getting scammed by the IPCC and ALMOST (and I hope it turns to be ALMOST) spent trillions tilting at windmills, if you will.But have fun evolving to the next level. I am sure it will be great to chain yourself to a gas pump somewhere and stage a protest.

[phlegm 6]

Might snow in vegas on monday.

[timwakefield 68]

Whiffed on that one pal - I did say IF we are using them up (and I am not so sure we are), why not put the money towards alternate methods of fueling travel - BUT do so because we are running out of resources, not because a bunch of self-interest scammers decide they want to create an artificial crisis and make money off of it by creating this carbon credit fiasco. I don't know how I can be any more clear there - you are trying to put words in my mouth (i.e. no thought to the future). Read a bit more carefully next time.

There is a limited amount of natural gas on this planet. That is not possibly a debatable point. We are using it. It is depleting. There is absolutely no rational way to argue against that. And I did read carefully, and my point still stands: why wait until they are running out? Are you offended by the idea of running your car on anything other than gasoline? Car fumes and similar wastes smell bad (try googling smog). Wouldn't it be nice if cars emitted water instead of exhaust? Oh that's right, God will fix it cuz he's always looking out for us.

[Don Giovanni 0]

I realize what is going on, we are getting scammed by the IPCC and ALMOST (and I hope it turns to be ALMOST) spent trillions tilting at windmills, if you will.

i know you tried your hardest but this sentence just doesnt make sense. do you work for an oil company? thats the only reason i can think of that you would be so married to relying on imports from the middle east, and out of date technology in general.

[85suited 0]

We have lots of Resources here in the US to tap.....We should look at alternative sources of energy while drilling hereGlobal Warming is a huge scare tactic & a big myth

[SCYUKON 0]

And I did read carefully, and my point still stands: why wait until they are running out? Are you offended by the idea of running your car on anything other than gasoline? Car fumes and similar wastes smell bad (try googling smog). Wouldn't it be nice if cars emitted water instead of exhaust?

Not at all, as a matter of fact the thought of long distance electric cars charges me up. Electric power brings with it the potential for massive torque = go fast!My point continues to be this: don't be looking for alternatives because of the hoax that is CC. The CC crap is garbage, based on uncalibrated models not subjected to proper scientific rigor, and now a religion. And a massive hoax. I hope you have done enough independent research on your own to understand this. I certainly have.

[SCYUKON 0]

i know you tried your hardest but this sentence just doesnt make sense. do you work for an oil company? thats the only reason i can think of that you would be so married to relying on imports from the middle east, and out of date technology in general.

Well riddle me this - if CC is such a reality, then why the hell has it been put on the backburner now that little things like getting people back to work, putting food on the table, and keeping a roof over their heads has risen to the forefront?Cuz it was a nice little cause to trumpet while times were good, but now that times are bad, and the "investment" money has dried up, a closer look is being taken at the science that "was settled" (note the past tense), and the results are not coming back so unanimous (not that they ever were). And no I don't work for an oil company. Do you work for Greenpeace?

[timwakefield 68]

I hope you have done enough independent research on your own to understand this. I certainly have.

I assume by 'independent research' you mean 'reading stuff on websites,' because I find it hard to believe that you have worked on independent scientific research programs devoted to studying the earth's ecosystem.And no, I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. It does appear that the earth is getting warmer (glaciers that have stood for hundreds of years are melting, the average global temperature is rising), but I do not know the cause.

[SCYUKON 0]

I assume by 'independent research' you mean 'reading stuff on websites,' because I find it hard to believe that you have worked on independent scientific research programs devoted to studying the earth's ecosystem.And no, I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. It does appear that the earth is getting warmer (glaciers that have stood for hundreds of years are melting, the average global temperature is rising), but I do not know the cause.

No by independent research I mean by reading the IPCC reports themselves, and learning that they are just now figuring out ways to calibrate the models. That's right, the models being used to predict all of this doom and gloom have not even been calibrated. And by the way, I used to do scientific modelling (transportation and financial) for a living for 10 years, and step 1 is to calibrate the damn model so that it can at least predict past occurrences before you set it loose trying to predict the future.Anyways, this is just a rehash with a new set of protagonists (cept for me). Look up DN's thread about Al Gore being so great, it is quite long but there is a lot of good information contained in there.Or better yet, google IPCC reports and come to your own conclusions. Enjoy.

[timwakefield 68]

So like I said, reading stuff. I was just pointing out that that is not the same thing as 'doing independent research,' not by a long shot.

[SCYUKON 0]

So like I said, reading stuff. I was just pointing out that that is not the same thing as 'doing independent research,' not by a long shot.

um. ok. Obv useless trying to argue with/educate you. "Reading stuff". LOL.

[timwakefield 68]

um. ok. Obv useless trying to argue with/educate you. "Reading stuff". LOL.

Um, ok, you have not done scientific research on climate change, thus your statement that you have done independent research is false. That was all I was saying.It's like if I was all, 'Oh I totally scouted that guy, he has a really great arm and a wicked curve, he will be a big-time strikeout pitcher.' It makes it seem like I am much more knowledgeable than I am, when all I have actually done is read the scouting report.

[Nimue1995 1]

um. ok. Obv useless trying to argue with/educate you. "Reading stuff". LOL.

Look out, Jeepster hates for anyone to try to educate him or anyone else here . He'll be calling you an elitist before long.

[SCYUKON 0]

Look out, Jeepster hates for anyone to try to educate him or anyone else here . He'll be calling you an elitist before long.

Well to be honest, I think he realized he was getting his butt kicked about halfway through the debate and tried to find an easy way out. ;)He jumped into the wrong thread at the wrong time, figured it out, and now wants to exit stage left.Ok Mr. Knuckler, you da man. Don't bother reading the IPCC reports cuz they are "just stuff you can read on the internet". Don't bother forming an opinion as you are not down in the trenches doing the work. And while you are at it, don't bother making any statements about it being for certain that we are running out of gas, because I am sure it is just "something you read on the internet".Stick to poker, sir.

[timwakefield 68]

Ok Mr. Knuckler, you da man. Don't bother reading the IPCC reports cuz they are "just stuff you can read on the internet".

That's not what I said or implied. I said that reading them doesn't make you an expert. And you made fun of my reading comprehension?

[Don Giovanni 0]

Well riddle me this - if CC is such a reality, then why the hell has it been put on the backburner now that little things like getting people back to work, putting food on the table, and keeping a roof over their heads has risen to the forefront?Cuz it was a nice little cause to trumpet while times were good, but now that times are bad, and the "investment" money has dried up, a closer look is being taken at the science that "was settled" (note the past tense), and the results are not coming back so unanimous (not that they ever were). And no I don't work for an oil company. Do you work for Greenpeace?

i have no idea why you think i care about these CC reports or whatever the hell. the point is that gas pollutes, it will run out eventually, it comes from countries that shouldnt be getting billions of our dollars, but most importantly, it is out of date, inefficient technology. would you be ok if we still used medical equipment from the 1880s? the medical techiques back then saved some people so why change them right? why try to improve?thats what we are doing with gas powered cars. you talk about global warming scientists being brought up on charges. what about the oil companies who bribe our politicians so they can continue making billions of dollars each month. what about them destroying the chances of electric or solar powered cars? the whole point you are trying to argue is meaningless.alternative fuel options can give us more efficient, safer, cleaner, and in the long run much much much cheaper fuel than gas. please dont respond with more rambling about some groups report because i am not interested.

[hblask 1]

Yes let's deplete all of our natural resources, just use 'em all up with no thought to the future, and then when we're out of oil, then maybe we can start thinking of alternative sources. Brilliant.

Um, yeah, I hate to break it to you, but our oil supply is not just a big tank in the ground somewhere that the trucks drive up to, and then one day it runs out. It really, really doesn't work like that.Here's how it really works:There is oil that is really easy to get because it just bubbles to the surface. That's pretty much gone. There is oil that is slightly harder to get, because you have to drill, but it still comes up pretty easily. We still have a lot of that, probably at least 50 years, and probably less than 250 years worth. But there are also lots of other sources of squeezing more oil from known reserves, getting oil from unusual sources, such as shale, etc. It's sort of a exponential scale of oil, where as you move on to the next harder thing to extract, the cost goes up a little more than the last increase.So what happens is the oil companies look ahead, compute extraction costs, drilling costs, competitors supply, future demand, and every other factor they can think of, and come up with a price that makes it worth it for them to sell oil.Here's the part you are missing: their competitors -- the alternative energy folks are doing the same thing. At $2/gallon, it is wasteful to invest in alternative energy because it moves economic resources from valuable uses to less valuable uses. Based on the recent price run-ups, it looks like $4/gallon makes it a close call.So what happens is that as we approach the end of our fossil fuel supplies, all the market forces start to drive the price up. This doesn't happen in a day or a week, it takes decades. Decades is plenty of time for the alternative fuels to go through many development cycles. If you put money into them before it is economically useful, you are flushing money down the drain. There is no need to "force" alternative fuels on us, we've got a system that does it as efficiently as possible: free floating prices.

[hblask 1]

By the way, before you decide whether Climate Change should be on our priority list, watch this:http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/bjorn_l...priorities.htmlMake sure to watch to the end where he explains how these priorities work.

[Don Giovanni 0]

prices and current economics are not the issue. this is bigger than all of that nonsense.

[Balloon guy 158]

prices and current economics are not the issue. this is bigger than all of that nonsense.

You should totally go see The Day the Earth Stood Still.you would love it, the aliens decide the whole world needs to die because they are ignoring global warming.I guess Christmas came early for you.

[AmScray 355]

Does anyone have any estimates of where the "new oceanfront property" will be so I can buy in advance?

[El Guapo 8]

but most importantly, it is out of date, inefficient technology.

This shoots your entire retarded argument completely out of the water.It's out of date? Why because the internal combustion engine is 150 years old?It's inefficient? As compared to what?Wind? Nope, that still sucks and is proven not viable.Water? It works in some areas that have water flow to turn the turbine and efficiently transfer the energy.Solar?Nope that is still way too expensive and inefficient to use as a regular source.Also coal is still the cheapest most efficient way of producing energy. So until this is no longer the case, then keep digging for coal and drilling for oil.

[hblask 1]

I think the one thing to remember here is that forcing a switch, contrary to economic demands, to a less efficient technology harms people in the long and short run. There are many reasons for this, but the main one is because prices give us information on what people value. The question at this point is not whether to use petro fuels or just pay a little more for alternative. Our energy needs not only compete against other energy needs, they compete against other needs and wants in the economy.For example, for some people, the choice may be to use gasoline and live in a nice neighborhood, or use alternative and live in a dangerous neighborhood, because the cost of alternatives are too high right now to afford both. The middle class and above frequently forget that economic tradeoffs are a reality for many people. Perhaps the poorer person will have to give up celebrating their birthday, or maybe a security system for their house, or new, safer tires for their car, or healthier food for their baby. But no matter what, by forcing an economically inefficient choice on someone, you are forcing them to buy something that YOU value at the expense of something THEY value more.There are only a couple of cases where intervention is justified. The first is if the information is not there. For example, if nobody knew that cars caused pollution, then it would be justifiable to either create an education program, or to adjust prices (through taxes and/or fees) to compensate for the imperfect information. At this point though, everyone knows cars cause pollution, they are just choosing the small amount of pollution cars create in exchange for something they find more valuable.The second case is when the user doesn't suffer the negative externalities of their behavior. But in the case of cars, this is also not true, as each user both understands and suffers directly from the amount of pollution they contribute. Again, the mass of people have chosen this cost over others they could have taken in their life. That says a lot about how much people REALLY care about this stuff, as opposed to how much they care out of the context of reality.Again, go back to the Bjorn Lomborg lecture a few posts above this. It's not as simple as saying we'll just spend some extra money on global warming; that is money that is being taken from the immediate needs of people right now, for a problem that we can only make small changes to at a very large expense for a future generation that may or may not care about it.

[El Guapo 8]

want vs. need

I think I mentioned this somewhere else, but this is also going on in the bailout debate. Gov is trying to force the car companies to make green /hybrid/electric vehicles without doing the market research as to whether or not that the general public wants and/or will by them. At below $3.00 a gallon it make ZERO sense to buy one of these vehicles. Hell the hybrid SUV's are getting like 5 mpg more and are ~10,000 more than their gas counterpart. How much less gas do you need to consume to buy one of these.A client of mine and I were talking about this, when gas was $4.00 a gallon. His wife wanted the new Lexus Hybrid SUV, which at the time was selling for a premium. They do not drive that much, definitely not enough to justify the price, so I did the calculation and it would have taken something like 30 years at those prices to pay for the extra money for the car. His wife still wanted it, because it made her feel better. And that last statement is the crux of this issue, not the efficiency of petrol.