Guantanamo Bay

[Balloon guy 158]

So, you're implying that our soldiers are such barbaric animals that they'd rather kill a man than take a deposition later? I don't think that gives them very much credit as human beings.

Is it barbaric to choose to shoot someone who's shot at you and your friends, maybe killing them, rather than let them get a 6 month vacation then be freed right back to the battlefield rested and with a new gun?I was talking to a kid on leave from Iraq.According to him when an IED goes off, their SOP is to shoot ANYONE that runs. And they open fire because they are sick of IEDs.

And I don't think that enemy combatants should be given the same rights as American citizens. It should fall somewhere between Gitmo and Law and Order. Obviously battle conditions are very different than a murder scene in New York. But if we capture somebody, is it too much to ask that a soldier involved in the capturing makes a signed statement or some sort of deposition that is available to the public and specifically to the person being held and his lawyers?

Military already does this.That's how you get a gitmo membership cardThe question is what do we do after that

[Balloon guy 158]

No I didn't realise the "in uniform" was a reference to that so apologies for that/ I can't believe you guys spell realise with a z, jezusFirstly, you're acting like all these prisoners were shooting at soldiers and then got brought back to the prison. There many people who are "suspects". They haven't been seen near a dangerous weapon and they are in there. Someone sent a weird email and ended up in there. So lets not put out ultimatums of of we "need this place or they will die anyway"And basically in the rest of your post you seem happy to let the soldier be the judge jury and executioner. With all the nice photos being sent and rape stories we are hearing this sounds like a great idea.Its a prison where no one can interfere and you can be sent there with no convictions. Its horrible and bullshit. Kangaroo court is such a reassuring phrase

Here's one story of the type of detainee you are bringing up:The detainees, ethnic Uighurs from a mostly Muslim autonomous region in western China, have been in U.S. custody since 2001. They fled Afghanistan soon after the U.S.-led bombing campaign began that year, and Pakistani authorities turned them over to the U.S. military.The United States said the 17 had engaged in weapons training at an Afghan military training camp. The United States determined in 2004 that the 17 Uighurs were not enemy combatants, but it kept them at Guantanamo while trying to persuade other countries to resettle them. Officials said they were not returned to China because of credible fears that they could be persecuted if returned.U.S. government lawyers say the law forbids the detainees' entry into the United States, but efforts to find another nation willing to accept them have been unsuccessful. Here's anotherWASHINGTON -- Despite gaining their freedom by signing pledges to renounce violence, at least seven former prisoners of the United States at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have returned to terrorism, at times with deadly consequences.At least two are thought to have died in fighting in Afghanistan, and a third was recaptured during a raid of a suspected training camp in Afghanistan, Lieutenant Commander Flex Plexico, a Pentagon spokesman, said last week. Others are at large.Additional former detainees have expressed a desire to rejoin the fight, be it against UN peacekeepers in Afghanistan, Americans in Iraq, or Russian soldiers in Chechnya.About 146 detainees have been released from Guantanamo, but only after US officials had determined that the prisoners no longer posed threats and had no remaining intelligence value.Pentagon officials acknowledged that the release process is imperfect, but they said most of the Guantanamo detainees released have steered clear of Islamic insurgent groups.The small number returning to the fight demonstrates the delicate balance the United States must strike between minimizing the appearance of holding people unjustly and keeping those who are legitimate long-term threats, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman saidWhen you think about the fact that only 500ish people are in Gitmo, having already released over 200 means it's not a forever sentance.andAn additional 57 Guantanamo prisoners have been transferred to the custody of their home governments: 29 to Pakistan, seven to Russia, five each to Morocco and Britain, four each to France and Saudi Arabia, and one each to Spain, Sweden, and Denmark, the Pentagon has said.The Pentagon did not identify the seven detainees thought to have returned to fighting, though a few names have been made public. One released detainee killed a judge leaving a mosque in Afghanistan, Plexico said.Now really, what do you do that makes sense seeing as how we are in combat with these people and many of them in Gitmo now are saying they want to return and fight some more?What is the answer?I don't know either, but closing down Gitmo doesn't solve anything, just ships the problem elsewhere.

[hblask 1]

OK, mostly BG you are here for the humor you bring, but this last post is giving me a long pause.

[Jeepster80125 0]

So not only do you think its correct to have it, you also are against releasing people from it.Seriously though, you're all idiots. "American soldiers in uniform " lets get riled up! In uniform. In uniform. So its ok if hes off duty. Theres plenty of innocent people in there. The prison has no watchdog, it should not exist. Especially from a country who is "promoting democracy".

This isn't a very good way to articulate your point. Would you care to get more specific, or are you okay with hurling insults?

No I didn't realise the "in uniform" was a reference to that so apologies for that/ I can't believe you guys spell realise with a z, jezusFirstly, you're acting like all these prisoners were shooting at soldiers and then got brought back to the prison. There many people who are "suspects". They haven't been seen near a dangerous weapon and they are in there. Someone sent a weird email and ended up in there. So lets not put out ultimatums of of we "need this place or they will die anyway"And basically in the rest of your post you seem happy to let the soldier be the judge jury and executioner. With all the nice photos being sent and rape stories we are hearing this sounds like a great idea.Its a prison where no one can interfere and you can be sent there with no convictions. Its horrible and bullshit. Kangaroo court is such a reassuring phrase

Now it's apparent that you don't really know much about the subject of the thread you created. I'm glad you care about this, but you should get your facts straight before running your e-mouth.You might want to sit the next one out.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Is it barbaric to choose to shoot someone who's shot at you and your friends, maybe killing them, rather than let them get a 6 month vacation then be freed right back to the battlefield rested and with a new gun?I was talking to a kid on leave from Iraq.According to him when an IED goes off, their SOP is to shoot ANYONE that runs. And they open fire because they are sick of IEDs.

I'm not saying that we should in any way change military tactics. I'm fine with us shooting any hostiles on site and not taking prisoners if it will protect our boys out there. I'm only saying that, in the event that we take a prisoner, he should be treated with decency and a sense of justice. He should be allowed to see the evidence presented against him, and his lawyer should as well.

[Balloon guy 158]

OK, mostly BG you are here for the humor you bring, but this last post is giving me a long pause.

Yea, I'm kind of big on supporting the military first.Terrorist and their helpers don't get much support from me.So far I haven't fallen down a slippery slopeBut only because there isn't one.

[SlapStick 0]

Here's one story of the type of detainee you are bringing up:The detainees, ethnic Uighurs from a mostly Muslim autonomous region in western China, have been in U.S. custody since [b]2001[/b]. They fled Afghanistan soon after the U.S.-led bombing campaign began that year, and Pakistani authorities turned them over to the U.S. military.The United States said the 17 had engaged in weapons training at an Afghan military training camp. The United States determined in 2004 that the 17 Uighurs were not enemy combatants, but it kept them at Guantanamo while trying to persuade other countries to resettle them. Officials said they were not returned to China because of credible fears that they could be persecuted if returned.U.S. government lawyers say the law forbids the detainees' entry into the United States, but efforts to find another nation willing to accept them have been unsuccessful.

Thats two stories of how Guantanmo ruined peoples lives. Taken captive for 3 fucking years before realising they were innocent. I wonder how many waterboards they had to go through until they realised noone can be that crazy to not confess. Then when they are finally freed their lives are still ruined. I see what you are saying, but seriously all it shows is that this place should not exist. you don't want what is happening to happen on a larger scale. And if Obama does what he is intending it will be with proper research and work put into it, all countries will know this is happening etc Proper legislation. Its hard to get countries to agree to take things from a not even legal prison, if it has been closed down and the whole government is working on sorting out these people, things will happen. And its worth the sacrifice of whatever happens to the inmates just so this place will not exist any longer.

[Balloon guy 158]

I'm not saying that we should in any way change military tactics. I'm fine with us shooting any hostiles on site and not taking prisoners if it will protect our boys out there. I'm only saying that, in the event that we take a prisoner, he should be treated with decency and a sense of justice. He should be allowed to see the evidence presented against him, and his lawyer should as well.

Well the predence you would set here would be a little problematic when we invade Canada.I mean we will have hundreds of thousands of POWs and I don't know where we are going to get all the lawyers.Unless this is a clever level 7 plan to get ALL the lawyers inside a dentention facility at the same time and then quietly lock the gates, in which case I am with you my brother.Otherwise I agree once a person is a prisoner they should get treated humanely, but I'm saying there will be less prisoners taken and the ones that are will most likely turned over to countries that don't believe in humane treatment.

[Balloon guy 158]

Thats two stories of how Guantanmo ruined peoples lives. Taken captive for 3 fing years before realising they were innocent. I wonder how many waterboards they had to go through until they realised noone can be that crazy to not confess. Then when they are finally freed their lives are still ruined. I see what you are saying, but seriously all it shows is that this place should not exist. you don't want what is happening to happen on a larger scale. And if Obama does what he is intending it will be with proper research and work put into it, all countries will know this is happening etc Proper legislation. Its hard to get countries to agree to take things from a not even legal prison, if it has been closed down and the whole government is working on sorting out these people, things will happen. And its worth the sacrifice of whatever happens to the inmates just so this place will not exist any longer.

You know what's funny.At the end of the day I am advocating better living conditions for these people than you are.You just don't understand why, because you're hatred of Bush clouds your ability to understand what is happening.But don't worry, under the Obama administration, weapons training Al Queda will get you a ticket to a Chinese/Iraq/Turkish prison where the word humane does not exist.I'm actually fine with that.Oh and you might want to look up the word innocent, cause it has a different meaning in America.

[SlapStick 0]

This isn't a very good way to articulate your point. Would you care to get more specific, or are you okay with hurling insults?Now it's apparent that you don't really know much about the subject of the thread you created. I'm glad you care about this, but you should get your facts straight before running your e-mouth.You might want to sit the next one out.

If you can't figure out what I was hurling insults about good luck to you.It was just apparent I didn't get the reference, I assumed it was more of BG's decorated posts. I know a lot about the Geneva convention. The subject we are actually talking about, Guantanamo bay, I know a lot about that too, feel free to engage in it rather than popping in to egg on BG or really poorly trying to get the better of me.

[SlapStick 0]

Oh and you might want to look up the word innocent, cause it has a different meaning in America.

Yea, 3 years in Guantanamo.

[Balloon guy 158]

Yea, 3 years in Guantanamo.

No, that's the word "internment" the word innocent was in reference to the reason they were interned in the first place...hint...weapons training in Afghanistan....

[Jeepster80125 0]

Thats two stories of how Guantanmo ruined peoples lives. Taken captive for 3 fucking years before realising they were innocent. I wonder how many waterboards they had to go through until they realised noone can be that crazy to not confess. Then when they are finally freed their lives are still ruined. I see what you are saying, but seriously all it shows is that this place should not exist. you don't want what is happening to happen on a larger scale. And if Obama does what he is intending it will be with proper research and work put into it, all countries will know this is happening etc Proper legislation. Its hard to get countries to agree to take things from a not even legal prison, if it has been closed down and the whole government is working on sorting out these people, things will happen. And its worth the sacrifice of whatever happens to the inmates just so this place will not exist any longer.

It's pretty apparent that you don't like gitmo, but you aren't sure why. Good luck.

If you can't figure out what I was hurling insults about good luck to you.It was just apparent I didn't get the reference, I assumed it was more of BG's decorated posts. I know a lot about the Geneva convention. The subject we are actually talking about, Guantanamo bay, I know a lot about that too, feel free to engage in it rather than popping in to egg on BG or really poorly trying to get the better of me.

My point is that your expected audience would receive your thread better if you didn't hurl insults at the people participating in this thread. It ruins your credibility, do you see why? Your BBC link says more about your motivations here though.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I know this won't go over really well with a lot of you but you really need to define terrorist a wee bit more narrowly.******* who flies a plane into World Trade Center - TerroristTimothy McVie blowing up a building in Oklahoma City - TerroristSomebody in Iraq or Afghanistan fighting against the American military - not a terrorist although some of them if given the chance might fly a plane into a building.In War your opponents shouldn't be dehumanized and mislabeled.

[Balloon guy 158]

I know this won't go over really well with a lot of you but you really need to define terrorist a wee bit more narrowly.******* who flies a plane into World Trade Center - TerroristTimothy McVie blowing up a building in Oklahoma City - TerroristSomebody in Iraq or Afghanistan fighting against the American military - not a terrorist although some of them if given the chance might fly a plane into a building.In War your opponents shouldn't be dehumanized and mislabeled.

What about someone from Sudan that travels into Iraq just to shoot Americans?Anyone that joins Al Queda?Someone that teaches people that killing infidels will give the killer a free ticket to paradise?Whoever released the Best of ABBA CD?

[nutzbuster 7]

What about someone from Sudan that travels into Iraq just to shoot Americans?Anyone that joins Al Queda?Someone that teaches people that killing infidels will give the killer a free ticket to paradise?Whoever released the Best of ABBA CD?

oh boy....

[copernicus 0]

The most important thing about shutting Gitmo down is that the NY Slimes is already laying the groundwork for excuses for Obama. After years of railing about how evil and un-American Gitmo is, and that it must be shut down immediately, they now run a front page article about how complex the situation is, and Obama needs to be given time and flexibility.

[vbnautilus 48]

The most important thing about shutting Gitmo down is that the NY Slimes is already laying the groundwork for excuses for Obama. After years of railing about how evil and un-American Gitmo is, and that it must be shut down immediately, they now run a front page article about how complex the situation is, and Obama needs to be given time and flexibility.

So you disagree? I don't see why believing that it should be shut down and understanding the difficulty involved in doing so should be mutually exclusive.

[copernicus 0]

So you disagree? I don't see why believing that it should be shut down and understanding the difficulty involved in doing so should be mutually exclusive.

My post has nothing to do with the merits of shutting gitmo down, just the reversal by the NYT from slamming Bush's recognition of the problems created by shutting it down to greasing the skids for Obama to do the same thing.IMO shutting it down will be a huge mistake and lead directly to American deaths.

[Avaron 0]

Whoever released the Best of ABBA CD?

this. GITMO!!!1just kidding. abba are fine

[Randy Reed 0]

For what it's worth I know a guard who served at Gitmo. Slap stick makes it sound like we are the bad guys here torturingconvicts. Let me give you a real clue as to what it's like there.The Arabs who are in detention are not touched or tortured.The Arabs do spend all the time trying to mentally and physically torture the guards though. When guards walk down the hallthey constantly talk and yell about anything possible to the them like screwing and raping and murdering their families if they getout.The other fun thing they do is take any bodily fluids, piss, shit, semen, spit, mucous, excrement and make little bombs to hurl at the guards.Most guards literally can't take it and don't last, many having breakdowns and needing psychiatric help.Most of these detainees want nothing more than to kill and torture Americans.Yet you propose we play nice and send them back home and we are the bad guys. Nice.

[Avaron 0]

i would do that too, if i were innocent imprisoned for years and had no chance of getting free...there was an geman-pakistani man who was imprisoned in guantanamo bay for over 7 years. there was never an evidence that he has done anything, cia later confirmed to german governement that they were mistaken. and even then, the german governement did not trust him and he had to prove his innocence at court. needless to say that his life is destroyed by now. no job, no chance, mentally destroyed...it's all about principles here. the usa alway say that they stand for democracy and the free world and all the principles behind that. and now, they started to violate these principles themselves. this is just wrong. we cannot say "we're better than you" and then prove we aren't. and we have to keep that in mind, even if it may hurt sometimes.(and by "we" i mean basically the whole western world)

[El Guapo 8]

i would do that too, if i were innocent imprisoned for years and had no chance of getting free...there was an geman-pakistani man who was imprisoned in guantanamo bay for over 7 years. there was never an evidence that he has done anything, cia later confirmed to german governement that they were mistaken. and even then, the german governement did not trust him and he had to prove his innocence at court. needless to say that his life is destroyed by now. no job, no chance, mentally destroyed...it's all about principles here. the usa alway say that they stand for democracy and the free world and all the principles behind that. and now, they started to violate these principles themselves. this is just wrong. we cannot say "we're better than you" and then prove we aren't. and we have to keep that in mind, even if it may hurt sometimes.(and by "we" i mean basically the whole western world)

This is the exception, not the rule. We cannot cater to the exception when lives are at risk. Is it unfortunate that this happened to that man, yes. Does that mean that 98% of the other prisoners there are innocent? No of course not.Same thing happens in any penal system. Innocent people get sent to jail.

[hblask 1]

Government violations of rights is OK as long as it doesn't happen to me or my family.

FYP

[El Guapo 8]

FYP

To simplified and you know it.Your extreme libertarianism is confusing. There are so many things that are not black and white, and it almost seems to me like you would have the government be Military and CalTrans, and that's it.