Pray For Our Country

[Sportsmack 0]

FYPSo I guess since he is MY president I can't be critical of him? Coming into office with one of the largest monetary surpluses in history and deciding to use it for all of the wrong reasons is sufficient to bash him. Combine that with a complete lack of caring for fundamental human rights and you have a lemon. Apparently elitist is the go to term huh? If you criticize...ELITIST!

You can criticize all you want, but don't be so surprised when someone fires back. I fired back and got ripped...lol @ the double standard.

You really really need to get out more.

Getting ready to go see a movie actually, The Happening...review to come.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Getting ready to go see a movie actually, The Happening...review to come.

oh, so you're the reason why M Night Shamalamadingdong still gets to make movies. I was wondering who were the people who keep going to his movies, and now I know.

[Loismustdie 0]

When the other side is wantonly lopping off heads I don't see the harm in leaving possible other sides in a room. I mean, I don't mean to make it simple or anything, but.... this is pretty simple. Lopping off heads, holding in rooms. I will side with the room holding people, thank you. Not to mention, considering the cases that we have seen the past few years where people end up being released years later does anyone really think our justice system is all that fair? No. It works, but it knows how to get it wrong here and there to please the people. No suspected terrorist is going to get a fair shake.

[Sportsmack 0]

oh, so you're the reason why M Night Shamalamadingdong still gets to make movies. I was wondering who were the people who keep going to his movies, and now I know.

Lol, yeah my $6 is the reason that there will be a "The Happening 2." If only I had that power.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Lol, yeah my $6 is the reason that there will be a "The Happening 2." If only I had that power.

by that logic, you should stay home on polling day, 'cause your vote doesn't matter.

[Sportsmack 0]

by that logic, you should stay home on polling day, 'cause your vote doesn't matter.

Lol, you can't just leave it alone can you. Are you seriously just here to pick a fight? I'm done trying to have any kind of conversation with you dude, just relax and kick back with a beer or 11. Take the edge off bro...there's more to life than arguing on the internet. I'm gonna go play some poker, but you have fun with this one sided repartee...let me know how it turns out for you.

[DonkSlayer 1]

The state of morality in this country saddens me. Or perhaps it's xenophobia. Either way, this notion that people are somehow less human for having been born across an imaginary line is appalling.If you are not moved by the appalling inhumanity of the situation (imprisoning US and foreign citizens without a trial, without representation, without charges), then maybe an appeal to the practical will help: the way the US treats people in this situation is a signal to other countries how to treat US citizens. How would you like to be whisked away to a secret location, never charged, never allowed outside contact, for being the wrong color and/or religion?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. What is xenophobic about thinking non-citizens of a nation do not enjoy the rights of its citizens? Imaginary lines? No sir, just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Talk to Europe and about 1,000 wars that were fought, in part, over those lines. No xenophobia at all. Where did you "less human"? Who said anything in such a general term as "humans"? I wouldn't like being whisked away to a secret location, blah blah blah. This has unfortunately happened to a few innocents, and you're right, that's terrible. There are NO us citizens in Guantanamo. If someone has citizenship, I think they absolutely deserve a swift and fair trial per their constitutional rights. If you read what I wrote earlier, I think even insurgents/terrorists we pick up should get a quick tribunal and be imprisoned. What doesn't make sense about that, Hblask?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Lol, you can't just leave it alone can you. Are you seriously just here to pick a fight? I'm done trying to have any kind of conversation with you dude, just relax and kick back with a beer or 11. Take the edge off bro...there's more to life than arguing on the internet. I'm gonna go play some poker, but you have fun with this one sided repartee...let me know how it turns out for you.

I love how hyper-defensive you are, and then you tell me to relax.. i wonder if it's intentionally ironic, or you're really that oblivious. Judging from earlier posts, I'd put serious money on oblivious.

[Nimue1995 1]

"LOL @ you thinking that...a. We care what terrorists and "enemy combatants" who TERRORIZE and COMBAT us think of usb. That if they were treated to a freakin suite at the Ritz instead of a prison cell that they would be any more inclined to "recommend having a friendly relationship with America." These people don't give an eff about us...hence they terrorize us. Most are born and bred to hate us and anything we stand for. And don't go giving me the "we make them hate us" speech. If I really need to explain this to you, then wow...just wow.

If you're talking about real terrorists then yeah but how about the third or so of the detainees at Guantanamo that the U.S. government even admits probably aren't? And yeah,I somehow like the idea of our country actually living by the Constitution which in the case of Guantanamo is being trampled underfoot. You know our forefathers fought for the rights contained in that Constitution because they'd lived under tyrants. And they wrote it pretty damn'd carefully to make sure that it didn't happen here. But then they didn't figure on a President like GW. It is nice to see that the balance of power that they wrote into it is still working today. Everyone is perfectly happy to let bad things happen to the other guy. And if he/she is an innocent, so sorry. But when it's you that's snatched off the street and spirited away to Guantanamo with your family being none the wiser of where you are then it'll be a different story. There is nothing in the Patriot Act that excludes U.S. citizens from this practice. Or maybe you can show me where it is? Regardless it's obvious that you've never studied history or you wouldn't be buying into GW's dog and pony show still. (by the way, I used to be a Republican until living through 8 years of GW).

[Sportsmack 0]

If you're talking about real terrorists then yeah but how about the third or so of the detainees at Guantanamo that the U.S. government even admits probably aren't? And yeah,I somehow like the idea of our country actually living by the Constitution which in the case of Guantanamo is being trampled underfoot. You know our forefathers fought for the rights contained in that Constitution because they'd lived under tyrants. And they wrote it pretty damn'd carefully to make sure that it didn't happen here. But then they didn't figure on a President like GW. It is nice to see that the balance of power that they wrote into it is still working today. Everyone is perfectly happy to let bad things happen to the other guy. And if he/she is an innocent, so sorry. But when it's you that's snatched off the street and spirited away to Guantanamo with your family being none the wiser of where you are then it'll be a different story. There is nothing in the Patriot Act that excludes U.S. citizens from this practice. Or maybe you can show me where it is? Regardless it's obvious that you've never studied history or you wouldn't be buying into GW's dog and pony show still. (by the way, I used to be a Republican until living through 8 years of GW).

just lol...take care sir, have a nice day!

[Nimue1995 1]

just lol...take care sir, have a nice day!

you don't know me very well or you'd know I wasn't a sir. didn't the avatar give you a bit of hint? Anyway, killer I know I'm not going to change your mind any. I'd recommend that you go take a few courses in Constitutional Law and British & American history. Might open your eyes a bit. But I doubt that you want them opened.

[hblask 1]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. What is xenophobic about thinking non-citizens of a nation do not enjoy the rights of its citizens? Imaginary lines? No sir, just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Talk to Europe and about 1,000 wars that were fought, in part, over those lines. No xenophobia at all. Where did you "less human"? Who said anything in such a general term as "humans"? I wouldn't like being whisked away to a secret location, blah blah blah. This has unfortunately happened to a few innocents, and you're right, that's terrible. There are NO us citizens in Guantanamo. If someone has citizenship, I think they absolutely deserve a swift and fair trial per their constitutional rights. If you read what I wrote earlier, I think even insurgents/terrorists we pick up should get a quick tribunal and be imprisoned. What doesn't make sense about that, Hblask?

You are absolutely wrong about there being US citizens at Guantanamo, there are lots of the, taken from their homes on the basis of their race or religion, with no evidence. If there is so much evidence against them, why not put them on trial and show the world? The answer is because it was a political move that backfired, and now the Bush administration can't risk the embarrassment.I'm not sure how past atrocities justify this current round, but that seems to be what you are doing in the first paragraph. As to your question about being less human, this country was founded on the principle that all humans have inalienable rights, and one of those is the right to be free from govt harrassment for no reason. If you somehow believe that people unlucky enough to be born in a foreign country don't have such rights, then you have to believe one of two things: either they are not fully human and therefore have no such rights; or the fundamental basis for this country's legal system is flawed in that humans don't really deserve such things. Which is it?

[DonkSlayer 1]

If you're talking about real terrorists then yeah but how about the third or so of the detainees at Guantanamo that the U.S. government even admits probably aren't?

Source? So what would you do with insurgent/Taliban/Al Qaeda POW's?

And yeah,I somehow like the idea of our country actually living by the Constitution which in the case of Guantanamo is being trampled underfoot. You know our forefathers fought for the rights contained in that Constitution because they'd lived under tyrants. And they wrote it pretty damn'd carefully to make sure that it didn't happen here.

I agree with everything you said....but what citizens, whose rights are enumerated in the Constitution, have been trampled underfoot?

There is nothing in the Patriot Act that excludes U.S. citizens from this practice. Or maybe you can show me where it is? Regardless it's obvious that you've never studied history or you wouldn't be buying into GW's dog and pony show still. (by the way, I used to be a Republican until living through 8 years of GW).

I can show you where in the Bill of Rights it says US citizens are excluded.WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES

[DonkSlayer 1]

You are absolutely wrong about there being US citizens at Guantanamo, there are lots of the, taken from their homes on the basis of their race or religion, with no evidence. If there is so much evidence against them, why not put them on trial and show the world? The answer is because it was a political move that backfired, and now the Bush administration can't risk the embarrassment.

I was never under the impression that Guantanamo was some sort of US civilian prison and acted as such. Were you?

I'm not sure how past atrocities justify this current round, but that seems to be what you are doing in the first paragraph. As to your question about being less human, this country was founded on the principle that all humans have inalienable rights, and one of those is the right to be free from govt harrassment for no reason. If you somehow believe that people unlucky enough to be born in a foreign country don't have such rights, then you have to believe one of two things: either they are not fully human and therefore have no such rights; or the fundamental basis for this country's legal system is flawed in that humans don't really deserve such things. Which is it?

I reject the premise of your argument. The declaration of independence spoke to "all men", but the basis of our laws is the Constitution, which begins with "We the People". I will once again repeat that I'm down for military tribunals for these people and such. I do not support indefinite confinement for anyone not convicted. I support this ONLY because I don't believe in the "War On Terror" (it's not really a war), so as we're not expecting an official "surrender", we can't just hold people indefinitely.You called me xenophobic earlier so I assumed you were talking about my reference to illegal aliens who I hold have no constitutional rights either.

[JustDoIt 10]

I agree with the OP, people shouldn't have rights. Even if it's against the law!SWOP you're a moron.

Nobody is saying people shouldn’t have rights. We are talking about Supreme Courts decision in Boumediene v. Bush. A decision that breaks a chain of precedent as old as the common law that prohibits judicial inquiry into detentions of aliens abroad absent statutory authorization.It is obvious you don’t have a clue.

[JustDoIt 10]

If I had to guess I would say OP is without question in the teenyweeny% that believe Bush has done a good job while POTUS. I do agree that extending our laws to non-US citizens in non-US territories when convenient is questionable.The real problem here lies in the fact that these people should not be there in the first place. That was the only mistake. The rest of what has happened is just pure tragedy.

Again, we are talking about Boumediene v. Bush, a atrocious ruling. My concern is the courts and this ruling.

[Danny Dingleberry 0]

Source? So what would you do with insurgent/Taliban/Al Qaeda POW's?I agree with everything you said....but what citizens, whose rights are enumerated in the Constitution, have been trampled underfoot?I can show you where in the Bill of Rights it says US citizens are excluded.WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES

That says the people of the united states... not citizens. Being a citizen allows you certain civil rights, but all natural/human rights covered in the constitution apply to the people of the united states.

[JustDoIt 10]

In my opinion, Guantanamo Bay is not much different than the Japanese Internment Camps here in the United States during WWII. People held indefinitely, without trial, without any proof offered that they had done anything wrong, their lives and livlihoods destroyed, - all because of fear! And that from the President who said "we have nothing to fear but fear itself". I thought we had learned from that experience. If we want to export American Democracy as the way to go, we have to show even those we think are enemies, how it's supposed to work. What we've shown right now is that in the end we're no different than the average authoritarian system of government. The old USSR would be so happy to see that after they fell, we stepped right up to take their place and operate with the same tactics. Makes me wonder if we'll really ever see an election this fall. Actually, a better name for Guantanamo would be Siberia.You know H, I never thought we'd ever be on the same side of an issue but this is one where we agree. Don't worry, the sky's not falling.

Ridiculous, totally two different situations. The only thing they have in common is the Supreme Courts appalling rulings in Boumediene v. Bush and Korematsu v. United States.

[JustDoIt 10]

Perhaps Big D is a bit harsh but he isn't bashing you per se. He's bashing your ignorant arguments in this thread. The "Well your guy did this, nyah nyah nyah." Maybe you'd like my avatar to use to with your "argument". This is a DEBATE about a particular issue. And as is typical of someone who has never actually participated in a debate, you're bringing in all this extraenous information like it's relevent. So far everything you've posted hasn't been relevant to the debate at hand. I imagine this is probably the way you and your spouse fight as well. Instead of addressing the issue that is being discussed, you bring up what she did 20 years ago. How well does that strategy work for you? What people have been trying to tell you that regardless of how well that might work in your personal life, it's not going to fly here. My advice is to READ and READ and READ and don't be just getting all your information from Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and those extreme partisan right wing sites. Then maybe you'll be able to come back and form an intelligent argument.

Talk about a irrelevant point.

[JustDoIt 10]

So now that everyone has had the time to rant and rant and rant, I'm gonna say this one last thing because I'm growing extremely bored by this whole thing.Was my post about all the past stuff that Democrats have done wrong, the right way to go about forming an argument? Obviously not. But that's my point, and maybe if instead of flaming me from the get go, someone would have bothered to post a semi-adult response (read: no insults or curses) you would've have known that. The Ted Kennedy post was obviously a joke and in no way a reasonable response to Guantanamo. The next post about past Democrats flaws was the same thing. But it was this comment that got me started "If I had to guess I would say OP is without question in the teenyweeny% that believe Bush has done a good job while POTUS." What an arrogant, elitist thing to say. It's people like that who hate on the President because "it's the thing to do" or "because I don't have a brain of my own to form ideas of my own, so I'll just join the long line of haters" that really bugs me. So I figured I drop some non-sense of my own to show ignorant thinkers like this how stupid they really do sound. The joke irony was obviously lost on many of you. Side notes: Not married (proceed with the "no way?" "what a surprise" jokes), Don't watch Fox News, absolutely can't stand Limbaugh, getting very annoyed lately with Sean Hannity, can watch O'Reilly only in small doses...does that pretty much answer all of the stereotypes that you threw out at me?

Stick Around, every one is welcome! Don't worry about getting flamed, that normally means your doing pretty good.

[Danny Dingleberry 0]

nah... you get flamed when you're stupid, you get debate when you're doing good..

[JustDoIt 10]

you don't know me very well or you'd know I wasn't a sir. didn't the avatar give you a bit of hint? Anyway, killer I know I'm not going to change your mind any. I'd recommend that you go take a few courses in Constitutional Law and British & American history. Might open your eyes a bit. But I doubt that you want them opened.

It is entirely clear that, at English common law, the writ of habeas corpus did not extend beyond the sovereign territory of the Crown.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

nah... you get flamed when you're stupid, you get debate when you're doing good..

Thank you, I Could not have said that better mysellf, and I would have been longer winded and douchey-er if I had said it.

[Sportsmack 0]

nah... you get flamed when you're stupid, you get debate when you're doing good..

You also get flamed when you have a whopping 160 posts and you're calling other people stupid,just saying

[Sportsmack 0]

Stick Around, every one is welcome! Don't worry about getting flamed, that normally means your doing pretty good.

I'm not going anywhere, these guys actually make me laugh. All they know how to do is hurl insult after insult...it's actually quite amusing.