Sigh, 2 Situations Vs Retard Flats

[sennin 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)MP3 (t8560)Hero (t9440)Button (t20470)SB (t15550)BB (t5127)UTG (t6920)UTG+1 (t7825)MP1 (t6545)MP2 (t5105)Preflop: Hero is CO with Q , A . 5 folds, Hero raises to t1100, 2 folds, BB calls t700.Flop: (t2200) 3 , 6 , 3 (2 players)BB bets t400, Hero ???So this moron who is newish to the table decides to flat oop leaving himself with 10bbs, then follows up with a fantastic flop minbet and of course I wiff. I at least have to call this bet right? Is anyone shoving here? Or maybe I should minraise back :lol:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)MP2 (t8510)Hero (t7890)CO (t20420)Button (t15300)SB (t7227)BB (t6870)UTG (t7775)UTG+1 (t6495)MP1 (t5055)Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q , A . 4 folds, Hero raises to t1100, 3 folds, BB calls t700.Flop: (t2200) T , 9 , K (2 players)BB checks, Hero ???This hand happened immediately after, obv I miss again. No reads on this guy. I figure this flop isnt too great to cbet, since I think it hits his range a lot. QJ, KJ, KQ, JT etc etc. Im only getting a fold from a pocket pair, rly no idea if hes noob enough to flat in this spot with a hand like 55 but I wouldnt say its out of the question. So do you bet here, or do you let a card peel off and hope you get lucky by hitting a J?

[simo_8ball 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)MP3 (t8560)Hero (t9440)Button (t20470)SB (t15550)BB (t5127)UTG (t6920)UTG+1 (t7825)MP1 (t6545)MP2 (t5105)Preflop: Hero is CO with Q , A . 5 folds, Hero raises to t1100, 2 folds, BB calls t700.Flop: (t2200) 3 , 6 , 3 (2 players)BB bets t400, Hero ???So this moron who is newish to the table decides to flat oop leaving himself with 10bbs, then follows up with a fantastic flop minbet and of course I wiff. I at least have to call this bet right? Is anyone shoving here? Or maybe I should minraise back :lol:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)MP2 (t8510)Hero (t7890)CO (t20420)Button (t15300)SB (t7227)BB (t6870)UTG (t7775)UTG+1 (t6495)MP1 (t5055)Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q , A . 4 folds, Hero raises to t1100, 3 folds, BB calls t700.Flop: (t2200) T , 9 , K (2 players)BB checks, Hero ???This hand happened immediately after, obv I miss again. No reads on this guy. I figure this flop isnt too great to cbet, since I think it hits his range a lot. QJ, KJ, KQ, JT etc etc. Im only getting a fold from a pocket pair, rly no idea if hes noob enough to flat in this spot with a hand like 55 but I wouldnt say its out of the question. So do you bet here, or do you let a card peel off and hope you get lucky by hitting a J?

1st hand I raise to $3k (and obv call a shove from there).2nd hand I usually check back. You have up to 10 outs against anything that beats you, and you may have the best hand already.

[sennin 0]

Alright, rly wanted to shove the flop on the first hand, just not sure if it was spewy or not. Ended up calling the bet, then folding to his bigger turn bet. I did check behind on the 2nd hand, unfortunately didnt improve and folded to his bet. Obv woulda won this tourney, lost a pot for a top10 stack A2>AA and just busted, oh well.

[LJB723 0]

Alright, rly wanted to shove the flop on the first hand, just not sure if it was spewy or not. Ended up calling the bet, then folding to his bigger turn bet. I did check behind on the 2nd hand, unfortunately didnt improve and folded to his bet. Obv woulda won this tourney, lost a pot for a top10 stack A2>AA and just busted, oh well.

I know simo's good but you could have waited for a few more responses before posting results!Hand 1, I think I shove, but I have no tolerance to min-donkbets.Hand 2, ipits. Check flop, fold turn ui.And that's a pretty gross beat you took. Did he flop the straight?

[copernicus 0]

Alright, rly wanted to shove the flop on the first hand, just not sure if it was spewy or not. Ended up calling the bet, then folding to his bigger turn bet. I did check behind on the 2nd hand, unfortunately didnt improve and folded to his bet. Obv woulda won this tourney, lost a pot for a top10 stack A2>AA and just busted, oh well.

WP.Shoving the first flop is way too spewy, he is more likely to have pairs than a worse ace.

[simo_8ball 0]

Shoving the first flop is way too spewy, he is more likely to have pairs than a worse ace.

The min donkbet is (almost) never a strong hand. I think the strongest hand he ever has in his range is 67 (and I'm skeptical that his range includes hands that strong), and far more likely he has a random ace high or maybe a flush draw. He might have king high.He is folding this flop often enough for us to be shoving ATC here, let alone a hand as strong as AQ.Our worst case scenario here is that he calls a shove with a random pair and we have ~7 outs (and we aren't too far off having correct pot odds to get it in anyway in such a case).The only reason I would ever flat call this flop is if I was planning on shoving almost any turn card to almost any bet. I strongly think that call flop/fold turn is the pretty much the worst possible line to take in this situation (well, other than folding the flop).Can I ask, what do you do with hands like 22 and 44 here? Because if you are folding (or calling flop folding turn) that is a massive leak. AQ here is a LOT stronger hand than something like 44 or 55.

[copernicus 0]

The min donkbet is (almost) never a strong hand. I think the strongest hand he ever has in his range is 67 (and I'm skeptical that his range includes hands that strong), and far more likely he has a random ace high or maybe a flush draw. He might have king high.He is folding this flop often enough for us to be shoving ATC here, let alone a hand as strong as AQ.Our worst case scenario here is that he calls a shove with a random pair and we have ~7 outs (and we aren't too far off having correct pot odds to get it in anyway in such a case).The only reason I would ever flat call this flop is if I was planning on shoving almost any turn card to almost any bet. I strongly think that call flop/fold turn is the pretty much the worst possible line to take in this situation (well, other than folding the flop).Can I ask, what do you do with hands like 22 and 44 here? Because if you are folding (or calling flop folding turn) that is a massive leak. AQ here is a LOT stronger hand than something like 44 or 55.

yes, im folding them also, and playing them OR AQ is a massive leak. Villain bet into a player with a very strong PF raise. Thats a set or overpair even from a donk size bet. You arent seeing the river for free.

[simo_8ball 0]

yes, im folding them also, and playing them OR AQ is a massive leak. Villain bet into a player with a very strong PF raise. Thats a set or overpair even from a donk size bet. You arent seeing the river for free.

No. I'm sorry, but the min donkbet in this situation is a hand better than 67 almost never. Min donkbets are ace high. They are weak draws. They are underpairs. I have never seen this bet from trips. Ever.Shoving here against his range is instantly profitable. I'll come up with an equation tomorrow, but I am extremely confident that shoving the flop is profitable.

[simo_8ball 0]

Fold = 0Villain fold = +2800Villain call = 10,400 x Y% - 40000 = Fx2800 + (1-F) x (10,400 x Y% - 4000)0 = 2800F + 10,400Y - 4000 - 10,400YF + 4000F4000 = 6800F + 10400Y - 10400YF40 = 68F + 104Y(1-F)10 = 17F + 26Y(1-F)Assuming 0% fold equity:10 = 26YY = 10/26 = 38% showdown equity.Assuming 0% showdown equity:10 = 17FF = 10/17 = 59% fold equity.Going by a general worst case of 27% (against a 6):10 = 17F + 26x0.27x(1-F)10 = 17F + 7.02 - 7.02F3 = 10FF = 3/10 = 30% fold equity.Now, I think he is definitely folding more than 30% of the time. He is donkbetting ace/king high quite a lot here, and he could be bet/folding something like 44.Ok, let's factor in some flush draws. Suppose that bumps our equity up to even just 35% when called, which I still think is way below our actual equity.10 = 17F + 26x0.35x(1-F)10 = 17F + 9.1 - 9.1F0.9 = 7.9FF = 0.9/7.9 = 11% fold equity.You cannot tell me he isn't folding more than 11% of the time.I actually think he is folding to a shove well over half the time, and I think we are easily over 35% when called.We still have the best hand on this flop a very large % of the time.

[sennin 0]

Fold = 0Villain fold = +2800Villain call = 10,400 x Y% - 40000 = Fx2800 + (1-F) x (10,400 x Y% - 4000)0 = 2800F + 10,400Y - 4000 - 10,400YF + 4000F4000 = 6800F + 10400Y - 10400YF40 = 68F + 104Y(1-F)10 = 17F + 26Y(1-F)Assuming 0% fold equity:10 = 26YY = 10/26 = 38% showdown equity.Assuming 0% showdown equity:10 = 17FF = 10/17 = 59% fold equity.Going by a general worst case of 27% (against a 6):10 = 17F + 26x0.27x(1-F)10 = 17F + 7.02 - 7.02F3 = 10FF = 3/10 = 30% fold equity.Now, I think he is definitely folding more than 30% of the time. He is donkbetting ace/king high quite a lot here, and he could be bet/folding something like 44.Ok, let's factor in some flush draws. Suppose that bumps our equity up to even just 35% when called, which I still think is way below our actual equity.10 = 17F + 26x0.35x(1-F)10 = 17F + 9.1 - 9.1F0.9 = 7.9FF = 0.9/7.9 = 11% fold equity.You cannot tell me he isn't folding more than 11% of the time.I actually think he is folding to a shove well over half the time, and I think we are easily over 35% when called.We still have the best hand on this flop a very large % of the time.

Hmm interesting, thanks for doin the math sir. I def agree that he is def folding more than 11% of the time here. Was thinking about it last night, I think my flat was probably the worst of the 3 choices I could make unless I was planning on floating the turn(which I may have done if he checked but it wasnt in the forefront of my mind at the time)

[Sheiky 0]

I shove the first one pretty quickly, second one i check.

[SavageHenry 0]

lol guess ive been unlucky but the min donk bet almost every time someone does it to me is the supreme overlord nuts. funny thing is i usually have AK or AQ that missed...shovel-> busto. its a good way to confuse me so if you see me in your tourney...please no donk bets.

[copernicus 0]

No. I'm sorry, but the min donkbet in this situation is a hand better than 67 almost never. Min donkbets are ace high. They are weak draws. They are underpairs. I have never seen this bet from trips. Ever.Shoving here against his range is instantly profitable. I'll come up with an equation tomorrow, but I am extremely confident that shoving the flop is profitable.

All the math in the world doesnt help when your assumptions are wrong. We obv have vastly different experences with donkbets.

[simo_8ball 0]

All the math in the world doesnt help when your assumptions are wrong. We obv have vastly different experences with donkbets.

The equation lets you calculate equity from whatever assumptions you like.What do you personally see his range as being here? How often is it a flush draw, how often is it one pair, how often is it a random ace high, and how often are we dead?Just as a rough guesstimate.

[copernicus 0]

The equation lets you calculate equity from whatever assumptions you like.What do you personally see his range as being here? How often is it a flush draw, how often is it one pair, how often is it a random ace high, and how often are we dead?Just as a rough guesstimate.

TT-66,KsQs,KsJs,QsJs,QsTs no fold equity, since he either thinks hes ahead with his overpair/set and that you are the one semibluffing or thinks he needs 9 outs to breakeven and on average he would see himself with 11 or 12 outs needing only 35% equity. Its all in the read, as I said above. There is another equation which I think serves better here, while Im stuck in the airport later Ill see how that comes out against this range. that is , the equity from calling the donk bet, fold the turn if you whiff, if you hit you get another 500 chips from villain on the turn when hes on the flush draw, he pushes back with the set or made flush if you "hit" with the Qs, or folds with the pairs.

[Sheiky 0]

TT-66,KsQs,KsJs,QsJs,QsTs no fold equity, since he either thinks hes ahead with his overpair/set and that you are the one semibluffing or thinks he needs 9 outs to breakeven and on average he would see himself with 11 or 12 outs needing only 35% equity. Its all in the read, as I said above. There is another equation which I think serves better here, while Im stuck in the airport later Ill see how that comes out against this range. that is , the equity from calling the donk bet, fold the turn if you whiff, if you hit you get another 500 chips from villain on the turn when hes on the flush draw, he pushes back with the set or made flush if you "hit" with the Qs, or folds with the pairs.

His range has got to be wider than that, i mean i think there's no way that he's never ever folding to a shove once he min donk bets

[copernicus 0]

His range has got to be wider than that, i mean i think there's no way that he's never ever folding to a shove once he min donk bets

It isnt wider than that after seeing bunches of them. The donk bets Ive seen are almost always invitiations to a reraise, and when it isnt its a blocking bet to a draw. Since hero has the As there arent very many flush draws that call a PF raise OOP with stacks this low...the implied odds dont support low suited connectors, it has to be the biggies where TP has a reasonable chance to take the hand down. connected flush cards + overcards = no FE.If hero had the Ah instead of As that might widen villains range to more draws that improve AQs chances, and hope villain doesnt have AK.

[Poker Addict 0]

I only read the OP.Hand 1 - I flat that donk bet looking to improve on the turn. Folding to such a tiny bet is incredibly weak and shoving turns your hand into a bluff right now - not horrible but you should have reads on this guy for that to be profitable. Need to know how he handles bet sizing with types of hands/flops. I call.Hand 2 - sucks. It feels like we are destroying our image - or we did well before this as we are getting flatted by the big blind. I cbet half the pot here and see him fold his little suited connectors or small pocket pair. If he comes back over the top I fold.

[sennin 0]

I guess hand 1 is just very read dependant(aren't they all lol), if this situation came up around 20 hands later I would have shoved the flop as the guy just played absolutely awful, limping in way too much and flatting way too much. So I think flatting his range def includes alot of suited connectors, all pairs, any 2 broadways, AXs. The tough part is figuring out if he's betting all of that, and tbh I have no idea, I never saw him make the same play again.

[Mercury69 3]

1. Raise to 2K and call his semi-bluff shove. No way he hit that flop, but he might have a small PP and a str8 and/or flush draw, so you'll be flipping and dodging, but he might also have a lesser A. 2. Bet about 900 as a probe, if you are met with an insta-shove, fold. If it's a flat call from villain, at least you'll see another card relativly cheaply, but he's probably on a similar str8 draw or has hit two pair and may boat on the turn/river...