A Question For Daniel Negreanu About The Changing Of The Guard

[Tyler Tesla 0]

I've recently joined a site named Cardrunners. It is a poker training website that you go to improve your game. You get to keep a blog and read other people's blogs about poker, and post questions to people of a similar mindset on the forums thus reducing the risk of getting bad advice from players that don't know any better than you. Either way the level of quality of the average player there far outstrips the levels at other poker sites including FCP by a mile. But I'm not here talking about FCP, I'm actually talking about live players. I really believe there is going to be an inevitable transition towards a proliferation of live shorthanded games. I don't go to casinos regularly so I'm not sure if this has already happened. I think it will mirror what happened online, especially with the new poker equipment and inventions to speed up and advance live games, things are definitely going to get interesting. My contention is that you always seem to have a jovial attitude with that impersonation you do of you know "the classic internet poker geek that is talkign about +EV, and why limping is sooo -EV, etc)." I believe that you are in a completely different class of poker player, truly one of the immortals that will be almost worshipped in the poker future like Doyle & TJ are, when you grow old, and I understand that that is a joke that you make, although sometimes I wonder if you actually do think that making decisions based on equity and expectation are things that are reserved for the internet geek and can't really be applyed well enough to mean anything because being one of them I consider it completely untrue since I have experience with observing the level of analysis these types of players make of their games every day, about their game and other peoples games. This doesn't include the datamining on opponents to learn their patterns, and the proliferation of Pokertracker and PAHUD to keep track of all of your hands and all of your opponents hands that they've shown, and different stats like vpip (voluntary amount put in pot), aggression factor, & preflop raising percentage, and also having that information on your computer to use while you're playing, using PAHUD. And even all of this still doesn't necessarily give a person an edge online, it just increases their chances of winning by that much, much like if you wanted to make a successful investment you have to do a lot of research. My contention is simple. Ignoring Patrick Antonius and Phil Ivey, from an obvious bias since they play online and have proved their online excellence, and Antonius started plaing poker online first, Anyway it seems to me that the distance between all of the live pros and the strong internet players seems to be as wide as the day is long both at live games and internet play. Its obviously clearer online where finding a live pro at FTP that is actually winning is a rare surprise. It's like finding something quite out of the blue. You go to a table and you think boy "John Juanda is doing well in this game, interesting." All I'm saying is that most of the live pros don't understand the game as accurately and obsessively as the internet guys and don't stand much of a chance online vs these kind of players anymore. The new sharks are online. And with the future I'm wondering about when they start playing six max NL games a lot more in live casinos as the norm because that is where the skill levels will really be exposed in the disparity between live players and online players. I personally can't wait because I'm interested in eventually playing live soon, but of course I'm like any other noob, and I'm building my online roll, made 2000 all from scratch so far, so I'm decent and will go to Vegas soon, just for vacation and to play some microstakes games there like NL100 and NL200. I'm looking forward to the changing of the guard of internet giants being realized as the new poker kings. Soon we'll reach a point where even Matusow might learn how to use Pokertracker to show him that he isn't necessarily just running bad, that he might also be playing bad, although Matusow because completely is getting his shit together at a higher level right now and people should be proud of him for dropping the weight and increasing his attention by exercising and staying in shape. Hope he sticks with it because it was a good decision by him. I'll be honest though I know internet poker wouldn't be great without live poker existing first, and I know that internet software wouldn't have been as great or detailed as it is now if it wasn't for players, actually like you, that kept meticulous records of their results of things to focus on and realized that recordkeeping was key to being professional in this game. To me, its strange how people change when they don't see the rise of technologies as better more rigorous versions of their old methods of gaining an edge on the competition and that the fazing out of the old methods of things is natural. Ultimately I feel that an online player that uses all the resources available to him at the online sites has a substantial advantage over his opponents at the tables and a substantially better chance to win and also to improve his game faster. I feel much the same way about the live players that take advantage of any resources they can have in live games like constantly taking notes and making records of their hourly rates like DN used to do when he played cash games,. This sort of recordkeeping has evolved into BB/hr, and then BB/100 online to track your profits. Live poker remains strong though because of the basic fact that you will always find players that don't know anything about anything about how to play poker well even if you drilled it into their heads. This is the same thing with online poker and poker in general. While you will find a lot of fish in live games, this is negated by the fact that you can find just as many online, as well as being able to play as much as 10 times as many hands/day as live cash game players if you choose to online.How about you Daniel, what do you really think about the changing of the guard.

[SlapStick 0]

I tried reading it, sounds interesting, needs paragraphs.

[Nimue1995 1]

I do believe the transition from internet player to live could be more difficult than you imagine Tyler. For one thing, in the privacy of your living room you can do anything physically during a game that you feel like. But after some long hours at the live table I think you'll find it to be more exhausting and also you have to think about not only what you're playing but what you're doing physically that could give other players a tell. Just my opinion and there may be some of the people here that would tell me I'm all wet.

[BaseJester 1]

6-max is a space issue in a casino if they're using real dealers and cards.If they're not using real dealers and cards, I think people will question why they aren't just playing online.

[Tyler Tesla 0]

I do believe the transition from internet player to live could be more difficult than you imagine Tyler. For one thing, in the privacy of your living room you can do anything physically during a game that you feel like. But after some long hours at the live table I think you'll find it to be more exhausting and also you have to think about not only what you're playing but what you're doing physically that could give other players a tell. Just my opinion and there may be some of the people here that would tell me I'm all wet.

I agree with you about the difference between live play nd online play. I personally would find it probably impossible because I'm used to playing about 4 tables at a time online, and each of those tables is 6max which is probably as much as 6 times as fast as a live ring game when all things are considered, probably faster. I have trouble concentrating at just one. Still would be fun because I've heard there are a lot more weak players in live games, and it would also be good to play people that you can see because of access to other forms of information and tells. I believe that the part of adjusting to paying attention to how you appear and your actions would be natural for me because I like to observe people. Perhaps giving up tells would need work, but I'd work as hard at it as I have at online poker. Either way, would be fun, and I'm doing it this summer, during WSOP time to see the live pros. The guard ain't changed yet, .

[Jam-Fly 8]

I've recently joined a site named Cardrunners. It is a poker training website that you go to improve your game. You get to keep a blog and read other people's blogs about poker, and post questions to people of a similar mindset on the forums thus reducing the risk of getting bad advice from players that don't know any better than you. Either way the level of quality of the average player there far outstrips the levels at other poker sites including FCP by a mile. But I'm not here talking about FCP, I'm actually talking about live players. I really believe there is going to be an inevitable transition towards a proliferation of live shorthanded games. I don't go to casinos regularly so I'm not sure if this has already happened. I think it will mirror what happened online, especially with the new poker equipment and inventions to speed up and advance live games, things are definitely going to get interesting. My contention is that you always seem to have a jovial attitude with that impersonation you do of you know "the classic internet poker geek that is talkign about +EV, and why limping is sooo -EV, etc)." I believe that you are in a completely different class of poker player, truly one of the immortals that will be almost worshipped in the poker future like Doyle & TJ are, when you grow old, and I understand that that is a joke that you make, although sometimes I wonder if you actually do think that making decisions based on equity and expectation are things that are reserved for the internet geek and can't really be applyed well enough to mean anything because being one of them I consider it completely untrue since I have experience with observing the level of analysis these types of players make of their games every day, about their game and other peoples games. This doesn't include the datamining on opponents to learn their patterns, and the proliferation of Pokertracker and PAHUD to keep track of all of your hands and all of your opponents hands that they've shown, and different stats like vpip (voluntary amount put in pot), aggression factor, & preflop raising percentage, and also having that information on your computer to use while you're playing, using PAHUD. And even all of this still doesn't necessarily give a person an edge online, it just increases their chances of winning by that much, much like if you wanted to make a successful investment you have to do a lot of research. My contention is simple. Ignoring Patrick Antonius and Phil Ivey, from an obvious bias since they play online and have proved their online excellence, and Antonius started plaing poker online first, Anyway it seems to me that the distance between all of the live pros and the strong internet players seems to be as wide as the day is long both at live games and internet play. Its obviously clearer online where finding a live pro at FTP that is actually winning is a rare surprise. It's like finding something quite out of the blue. You go to a table and you think boy "John Juanda is doing well in this game, interesting." All I'm saying is that most of the live pros don't understand the game as accurately and obsessively as the internet guys and don't stand much of a chance online vs these kind of players anymore. The new sharks are online. And with the future I'm wondering about when they start playing six max NL games a lot more in live casinos as the norm because that is where the skill levels will really be exposed in the disparity between live players and online players. I personally can't wait because I'm interested in eventually playing live soon, but of course I'm like any other noob, and I'm building my online roll, made 2000 all from scratch so far, so I'm decent and will go to Vegas soon, just for vacation and to play some microstakes games there like NL100 and NL200. I'm looking forward to the changing of the guard of internet giants being realized as the new poker kings. Soon we'll reach a point where even Matusow might learn how to use Pokertracker to show him that he isn't necessarily just running bad, that he might also be playing bad, although Matusow because completely is getting his shit together at a higher level right now and people should be proud of him for dropping the weight and increasing his attention by exercising and staying in shape. Hope he sticks with it because it was a good decision by him. I'll be honest though I know internet poker wouldn't be great without live poker existing first, and I know that internet software wouldn't have been as great or detailed as it is now if it wasn't for players, actually like you, that kept meticulous records of their results of things to focus on and realized that recordkeeping was key to being professional in this game. To me, its strange how people change when they don't see the rise of technologies as better more rigorous versions of their old methods of gaining an edge on the competition and that the fazing out of the old methods of things is natural. Ultimately I feel that an online player that uses all the resources available to him at the online sites has a substantial advantage over his opponents at the tables and a substantially better chance to win and also to improve his game faster. I feel much the same way about the live players that take advantage of any resources they can have in live games like constantly taking notes and making records of their hourly rates like DN used to do when he played cash games,. This sort of recordkeeping has evolved into BB/hr, and then BB/100 online to track your profits. Live poker remains strong though because of the basic fact that you will always find players that don't know anything about anything about how to play poker well even if you drilled it into their heads. This is the same thing with online poker and poker in general. While you will find a lot of fish in live games, this is negated by the fact that you can find just as many online, as well as being able to play as much as 10 times as many hands/day as live cash game players if you choose to online.How about you Daniel, what do you really think about the changing of the guard.

I lost a bit of respect for the post after reading that. I'll finish reading it now tho!

[Jam-Fly 8]

6-max is a space issue in a casino if they're using real dealers and cards.If they're not using real dealers and cards, I think people will question why they aren't just playing online.

QFTand as for the whole "online vs live", I think these days, there isn't as much a difference between the two. There are many, many players who are competant both live and online. I don't think DN can be considered a live player as much as Durrrr can be considered an online player. They play both, and are quite good at both. If asked where has more fish, I'd say live (I believe that the simple reason for this is that playing live is more fun than playing online hence there will be more 'social' players).

[Danny Dingleberry 0]

Pokertracker/HUDs etc don't give people an edge online, but just increase their chance of winning??? wtf?

[copernicus 0]

Pokertracker/HUDs etc don't give people an edge online, but just increase their chance of winning??? wtf?

Online tools are the key issue, in fact. The level of concentration and memory needed to be a successful high stakes player live is far beyond what the online player needs, because of those tools. Some online players have that naturally, but for others it could take years to develop, or it might not even be able to be developed.There is a huge difference between remembering how a specific opponent played a specific card combination 3 years ago in a live game and data mining.

[Nimue1995 1]

Online tools are the key issue, in fact. The level of concentration and memory needed to be a successful high stakes player live is far beyond what the online player needs, because of those tools. Some online players have that naturally, but for others it could take years to develop, or it might not even be able to be developed.There is a huge difference between remembering how a specific opponent played a specific card combination 3 years ago in a live game and data mining.

Or remembering a hand from 20 years ago like Doyle Brunson. Hell I can't remember a hand from yesterday. That just really impresses me he has that kind of memory.

[trussdude 0]

I'm decent and will go to Vegas soon, just for vacation and to play some microstakes games there like NL100 and NL200.

When did Vegas start spreading .50/$1?

[nutzbuster 7]

When did Vegas start spreading .50/$1?

MGM might have this, not sure.(edit: I mean 100 buy ins. not .50 -$1 limits).