Three Overpairs

[ROBBBIGG 0]

if you go into check/call mode because you're scared of monsters you'll only win small pots with your big pairs

[Canute 0]

You raise a good point with this paragraph here. I would say in general I prefer playing flop poker. But I think, and I'm sure this is something that every player has dealt with at some point or another, you start to get gunshy. You don't remember the successes you've had when you played a hand correctly, and not as quick, you just remember the ones where something went wrong, and you just start trying to force everything into the pot at once. I prefer to play my big hands quick, but I often lose sight of the fact that an overpair isnt really a big hand when you're facing a lot of action. Let me ask you a question, though. This is another overpair, OOP. I don't get played back at at all, but would you have slowed down at any point? Or do stack sizes dictate this?Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownUTG ($40.75)UTG+1 ($37.40)MP1 ($9.75)MP2 ($39.85)MP3 ($33.30)CO ($19.05)Button ($213)Hero ($136.10)BB ($33.50)Preflop: Hero is SB with A, A. 3 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, Hero raises to $4.25, 1 fold, MP2 calls $3.50, CO folds, Button folds.Flop: ($9.75) J, K, 8(2 players)Hero bets $7, MP2 calls $7.Turn: ($23.75) 9(2 players)Hero bets $19, MP2 calls $19.River: ($61.75) 8(2 players)Hero bets $10, MP2 calls $9.85 (All-In).Final Pot: $81.45My initial reaction is that the turn bet was too big, but maybe not by much.

Ok, well now you have aces again here. Aces are a premium overpair that are hard to get away from. They are much better than tens and you can be more aggressive with them. The way your opponent played limping into the hand and then calling the flop and turn, I would put him on two pair or a straight draw. I can visualize KJ here or QT. I think the turn bet is kind of big. It pretty much pot commits both you and your opponent. I would probably ratchet it down from $19 to something like $10. You are still charging him to draw but not risking so much if he already has you beat. You might even want to check call here. Aces are very tough to play with someone calling big bets after the flop. If you think you have the best hand, but are very unsure , the idea is to lose the minimum. Unless I have reason to think otherwise, I will usually go all the way with them if I am heads up, unless the board is very scary, i.e. connected, suited etc. Or, if I know my opponent and he convinces he has me beat, I can lay them down. In multiway pots it is easier to lay them down as well when multiple opponents get aggressive. But heads up with a fairly non scary board like this one, I would probably slow down on the turn and call the river. So what do we get out of this? Aces as an overpair are much different from tens. And, maybe try to slow down with them heads up when you get heavy action. And lay them down with heavy action, an opponent you respect and a scary board.What did he have?

[Canute 0]

I'm not folding and I want to charge a draw with the Aces on the JK8 flop. I'm fine c/cing the river, but that's about it.I think betting the flop and then c/cing the turn + river with an overpair is ok, but usually just when you have a reason to believe you might not have the best hand. Sometimes you just have to lose your stack when you have an overpair, it happens and it's why you have a bankroll to play within.

I pretty much agree with this. You have to play aces aggressively and sometimes you lose your stack with them. Slow down if you can, but its hard to do with aces heads up.

[IBFT 0]

Ok, well now you have aces again here. Aces are a premium overpair that are hard to get away from. They are much better than tens and you can be more aggressive with them. The way your opponent played limping into the hand and then calling the flop and turn, I would put him on two pair or a straight draw. I can visualize KJ here or QT. I think the turn bet is kind of big. It pretty much pot commits both you and your opponent. I would probably ratchet it down from $19 to something like $10. You are still charging him to draw but not risking so much if he already has you beat. You might even want to check call here. Aces are very tough to play with someone calling big bets after the flop. If you think you have the best hand, but are very unsure , the idea is to lose the minimum. Unless I have reason to think otherwise, I will usually go all the way with them if I am heads up, unless the board is very scary, i.e. connected, suited etc. Or, if I know my opponent and he convinces he has me beat, I can lay them down. In multiway pots it is easier to lay them down as well when multiple opponents get aggressive. But heads up with a fairly non scary board like this one, I would probably slow down on the turn and call the river. So what do we get out of this? Aces as an overpair are much different from tens. And, maybe try to slow down with them heads up when you get heavy action. And lay them down with heavy action, an opponent you respect and a scary board.What did he have?

In this specific instance (the KJ898 board) villain had QJos. I didnt really care about the outcome, because, well, he's obviously a moron and I made a note of that - but I didnt have any experience with him, though I felt that the river card was the best possible card for me (other than an ace, i suppose) since it would have counterfeited KJ, K9, J9. But when I was looking back on it, I realize that the only real draw got there on the turn, and I didn't slow down (though with $23 in the pot after the flop and only $29 effective stack left, Im not sure I could get away from it anyhow).

[IBFT 0]

I pretty much agree with this. You have to play aces aggressively and sometimes you lose your stack with them. Slow down if you can, but its hard to do with aces heads up.

I agree with this sentiment to a degree, but I'd also like to play as close to perfect poker as possible, which means being able to fold when Im beat, and I don't do that nearly as much as I should.I think some of it just, as I said in the thread earlier, dealing with going through those periods where you think to yourself 'damn, everytime I get action with aces or kings i'm crushed', so you really start to evaluate how you're playing them. As long as you play them as close to 'correct' or 'perfect' as you can everytime, you'll be the winner in the long run, so thats what Im striving for.And so far, from the consensus, I seem to have played the 3 original hands in question backwards from how everyone else would have.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Never go broke with just a pair.

This is pithy, but it's wrong. Never say 'never' in poker. Yes, with learning players, trying to reinforce good habits of not overplaying hands is a good concept, but the game has much more complexity than that.Hand 1: Betting a tad more (say $4-$5) on the flop's good based on the texture. When we decide to 3-bet, we're not allowed to fold.Hand 2: Like the previous hand, betting a bit more due to flop texture's probably good. Unless villain's really been getting out of line or I know his IP min-raise here is a free card play, I don't think I 3-bet. Yeah, we'll be annoyed when an overcard peels off on the turn. As played though, I do think we can fold to his 4-bet.Hand 3: Not folding. Villain usually has a 9.Hand 4: Don't worry about having bet too much. In fact, just put him in on the turn if you're going to bet.I think the larger lesson here (beyond merely overpairs) is in 3-betting the flop. Your flop 3-bets should usually be monsters, air, or draws. When you're doing this with more mediocre hands (medium overpairs), you can frequently get yourself in trouble.

[mtdesmoines 3]

This is pithy, but it's wrong. Never say 'never' in poker. Yes, with learning players, trying to reinforce good habits of not overplaying hands is a good concept, but the game has much more complexity than that.Hand 1: Betting a tad more (say $4-$5) on the flop's good based on the texture. When we decide to 3-bet, we're not allowed to fold.Hand 2: Like the previous hand, betting a bit more due to flop texture's probably good. Unless villain's really been getting out of line or I know his IP min-raise here is a free card play, I don't think I 3-bet. Yeah, we'll be annoyed when an overcard peels off on the turn. As played though, I do think we can fold to his 4-bet.Hand 3: Not folding. Villain usually has a 9.Hand 4: Don't worry about having bet too much. In fact, just put him in on the turn if you're going to bet.I think the larger lesson here (beyond merely overpairs) is in 3-betting the flop. Your flop 3-bets should usually be monsters, air, or draws. When you're doing this with more mediocre hands (medium overpairs), you can frequently get yourself in trouble.

shhh

[IBFT 0]

This is pithy, but it's wrong. Never say 'never' in poker. Yes, with learning players, trying to reinforce good habits of not overplaying hands is a good concept, but the game has much more complexity than that.Hand 1: Betting a tad more (say $4-$5) on the flop's good based on the texture. When we decide to 3-bet, we're not allowed to fold.Hand 2: Like the previous hand, betting a bit more due to flop texture's probably good. Unless villain's really been getting out of line or I know his IP min-raise here is a free card play, I don't think I 3-bet. Yeah, we'll be annoyed when an overcard peels off on the turn. As played though, I do think we can fold to his 4-bet.Hand 3: Not folding. Villain usually has a 9.Hand 4: Don't worry about having bet too much. In fact, just put him in on the turn if you're going to bet.I think the larger lesson here (beyond merely overpairs) is in 3-betting the flop. Your flop 3-bets should usually be monsters, air, or draws. When you're doing this with more mediocre hands (medium overpairs), you can frequently get yourself in trouble.

And you wonder why people want you to post more. Thanks for this.

[ROBBBIGG 0]

I agree with this sentiment to a degree, but I'd also like to play as close to perfect poker as possible, which means being able to fold when Im beat, and I don't do that nearly as much as I should.I think some of it just, as I said in the thread earlier, dealing with going through those periods where you think to yourself 'damn, everytime I get action with aces or kings i'm crushed', so you really start to evaluate how you're playing them. As long as you play them as close to 'correct' or 'perfect' as you can everytime, you'll be the winner in the long run, so thats what Im striving for.And so far, from the consensus, I seem to have played the 3 original hands in question backwards from how everyone else would have.

"perfect poker"

[IBFT 0]

"perfect poker"

Go away, gimmick account.I admit it, I aim to play as well as the person in your avatar.

[NoBBiR 0]

Never go broke with just a pair.

This is like the worse rule that too many people follow in poker.If you have an equity edge, or your a favorite against your opponents range, put your damn monopoly moblinies in the pot.(edit: cobalt beat me too it )

Go away, gimmick account.I admit it, I aim to play as well as the person in your avatar.

You aim to blow all of your money you made creating an million dollar website playing poker and being a retarded commentator?

[Canute 0]

This is like the worse rule that too many people follow in poker.If you have an equity edge, or your a favorite against your opponents range, put your damn monopoly moblinies in the pot.It should not a be followed as a hard and fast rule. But I think it is a useful guideline to think about if you are getting ready to stick all you money in with one pair. One pair can be beaten in so many ways. People tend to overestimate the value of TPTK or and overpair when faced with heavy action. If someone thinks they have an equity edge based on the situation then by all means push the pair. (edit: cobalt beat me too it )You aim to blow all of your money you made creating an million dollar website playing poker and being a retarded commentator?

[NoBBiR 0]

I'm certainly not saying one pair is the nuts, or that it isn't vulnerable, but if you come down to a point where you're saying to yourself, "I should fold this, I only have one pair" your thinking process is incorrect. That is no reason to fold, ever.For instance, for 100 bbs or less, there are VERY VERY few occasions when I'm going to fold Aces and I'm certainly not ever going to let the thought of just having one pair come into my mind.

[IBFT 0]

You aim to blow all of your money you made creating an million dollar website playing poker and being a retarded commentator?

I aim to be the best poker commentator on telev...No wait, I want to right articles for ESPN giving a step-by-step account about how I'm going to win the WSOP ME and then going out 3hrs into day on.... No, wait, I aim to look like a fool, think im really good, and then get inexplicably angry at the table, causing millions of people to make fun of me.Oh, Christ. Just shoot me.