flush/straight draws

[Lord Ben 0]

How do you play big draws in NLHE tourneys? Try to see the cards for cheap, push in and let the opponent fold or gamble? The last couple tourneys I tried to see the cards for cheap and that didn't work out well so the last game I pushed in with big bets when A8s hit a flush draw, etc. The situation: I was the chip leader after brilliantly playing multiple hands in the first few rounds (that's the story I'm sticking too). Several other players had normal sized stacks of around 2000-6000 chips to my approx 12000 (start with 5k). Blinds were probably 100/200. Multiple people limp in, I have A8 of clubs so I limp in as well. Flop comes up 9 6 2 or so with two clubs for my flush draw. The guy in first position bets 1000 so I figure he must have hit something. One other guy calls him so he probably hit something too. So now there is about 2900 in the pot and both people have shown a willingness to bet significant percentages of their stack at the pot. Anything short of putting the other two all in (about 6k for one and 2k for the other) I figure won't make them fold and they'll just call. So I acted 3rd and stacked up an impressive looking stack of 500 chips to force the other 3 all in (one guy didn't have a chance to call the 1000 yet). Two folded but one guy called. He's the 2nd chip leader and he turned up A9 for TPTK to my flush draw. I hit a club on the turn and won it. I won another one later that night too.After the game however that moved bothered me. Obviously it worked out well for me but I'm not a favorite to win it assuming they call. I was hoping they'd fold both times but didn't and I got "lucky". I never tried it with anyone who's stack I didn't dominate though so I felt the risk was worth it at the time.Was that a dumb play? Or a fairly standard play that I can get away with as chip leader?

[Royal_Tour 0]

This is a confusing post..Anyways.. pushing all in after the flop wit hthe nut flush draw is very stupid.2nd off, you want more players involved in this pot if your turn brings a club., you should have just called this, especially since your in middle position. and have no idea where you stand at that point.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Never put all your chips into the middle when on a draw only...you had these guys covered, so it wasn't that bad a play in that regards, but you were still on a draw though, so I believe you should have just called after the flop based on your position at the table. :wink:

[Lord Ben 0]

But with a crappy flop like that isn't there a fairly good chance they'd fold and I'd take down the pot with no work? A semi-bluff if you will?

[Shocktastik 0]

Deleted-What I wrote didn't really make sense...Shock

[speedz99 145]

I would say that was a decent semi bluff, but the early stages of a tourney in middle position is not the time for that type of move.BTW, I don't like the pre-flop call with that hand from that position.

[SabaAba 0]

Great play by you stupid play by the guy who called with A9. Even if he thinks his 9 is good, which after a raise like that, it smells like TT or JJ to me, you could easily have flush draw with two overs for 15 outs, in which case he is still a dog. He was 2nd in chips and made that bad play, glad you nocked out that fish.By the way, betting half your stack for fold equity is not such a bad play. I think the play was great. You are monster chip leader and even if you lose, you still have over 30xBB to play with and regain the lead. If you win, you knock out at least the 2nd in chips and cruise to the easy win. Great play, whether you hit it or not.

[Rocketwadster 0]

But with a crappy flop like that isn't there a fairly good chance they'd fold and I'd take down the pot with no work?  A semi-bluff if you will?

you have to consider what the current pot odds would give your opponents when you make your raise like that if you intend to try to make that steal. Plus, you have to consider the implied odds as well, for you and your opponents. A crappy flop to you may have been a great flop for your opponents (after all, with that many people in the pot somebody more often than not has something. Be very careful with those types of steal attempts when you only have a draw, as they can very quickly bite you in the bum.. :wink:

[ajs510 122]

After the flop you were a 40% favorite to win that hand with the top draw possible. Going all in with a big chip advantage wasn't a bad move, since the other player CERTAINLY would have slowed down a lot after that 3rd club showed up. You got all of your money in there and gambled, there isn't a pro in the world who can say they've never done the exact same thing. = Big Win.

[JistTheFist 0]

there is no such thing as a 40% favorite to win a hand... he was behind.secondly... whoever said that the A9 guy made a dumb play is retarded... how can it be a dumb play when he is second in chips and about to DOUBLE UP if his 65% holds up? the OP with the flush draw made a dumb move and got lucky for it.you fools need to learn how to play poker. or... just learn how to handle losing large amounts of money,cuz that's whats gonna happen.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Great play by you stupid play by the guy who called with A9. Even if he thinks his 9 is good, which after a raise like that, it smells like TT or JJ to me, you could easily have flush draw with two overs for 15 outs, in which case he is still a dog. He was 2nd in chips and made that bad play, glad you nocked out that fish.By the way, betting half your stack for fold equity is not such a bad play. I think the play was great. You are monster chip leader and even if you lose, you still have over 30xBB to play with and regain the lead. If you win, you knock out at least the 2nd in chips and cruise to the easy win.  Great play, whether you hit it or not.

I don't know that it's necessarily the best option for picking up the most chips. Like one poster said, it might've paid off more to keep multiple players in the pot and just call. This way, if you don't hit it, you can drop the hand and not be over committed. If you hit it, you're bound to get at least one caller, maybe more. It's the old principle, Would you rather have three guys pay you $20 or one guy pay you $50? I like the play, as long as you're the big stack. It's like Daniel was talking about in his poker quiz #2 (I think). People will see when you flip it over that you're willing to play loose and take those chances. I think it helps your table image, but that's also debatable. I think what makes this a good play is the amount you have left if you don't hit the flush. 30 big blinds is a good amount and you can work your way back very easily. I think it might be generally a questionable call..chances are you're about 40 percent to win the pot..but..I think calling on the flop is probably the way to go, but I like the play just the same. I think I'd have to lay down A9 there.

[SabaAba 0]

there is no such thing as a 40% favorite to win a hand... he was behind.secondly... whoever said that the A9 guy made a dumb play is retarded... how can it be a dumb play when he is second in chips and about to DOUBLE UP if his 65% holds up? the OP with the flush draw made a dumb move and got lucky for it.you fools need to learn how to play poker. or...  just learn how to handle losing large amounts of money,cuz that's whats gonna happen.

LOL, we need to learn to play poker, HA HA. If you would make that call with A9, would you like to play against me?Yeah he was 60-65% favorite, but did he know that? Did the OP raise all in and say I have A8clubs? No, the guy guessed. The OP would have made the same move with TT, JJ (or higher) and even a set. Do you realize if he calls and the OP has say 66, he called all his chips in to runner runner full house? If you think calling all your chips with TPTK when it is a 9, I think you are the one that needs to learn poker. You are probably the guy who would call all in with the same hand on a flop of A62 because you have, LOL.

[Royal_Tour 0]

The only way he is a favorite is if no one else had pairs. Which is not true. since the other player turned over TPTK.You all seem to be missing the big picture!. Pushing all in here with what could be a monster hand. is foolish.Why does he want to win it here and now?. obviously he did not want any calls., since he didnt even have a hand yet.He stated himself that it was a semi-bluff. (meaning he doesnt want a call, but if he gets called, he has outs)but he did get called, and he was lucky to win. A call, on the flop would have set it up nicely for the turn if someone else was playing the flush.

[SabaAba 0]

Royal, are you then saying it was a good call by the A9 guy?If the OP has TT, wouldn't he want to win it right there too? Why would a guy holding TT or JJ want to see another card? He wouldn't, he is trying to protect his hand. And that's why the OP's move was a great one. He was not risking his tournament life on the line, but was putting 2 others for their tournament lives. Even if they call, the best they should have calling with this flop is overpair or set, and then you have outs.But I still think calling with A9 here is the dumbest move ever. If the A9 guy actually bet/raised all in before the OP pushed, then I don't think it's a bad play, but to call against the chip leader here is just DUMB!.

[JistTheFist 0]

there is no such thing as a 40% favorite to win a hand... he was behind.secondly... whoever said that the A9 guy made a dumb play is retarded... how can it be a dumb play when he is second in chips and about to DOUBLE UP if his 65% holds up? the OP with the flush draw made a dumb move and got lucky for it.you fools need to learn how to play poker. or...  just learn how to handle losing large amounts of money,cuz that's whats gonna happen.

LOL, we need to learn to play poker, HA HA. If you would make that call with A9, would you like to play against me?Yeah he was 60-65% favorite, but did he know that? Did the OP raise all in and say I have A8clubs? No, the guy guessed. The OP would have made the same move with TT, JJ (or higher) and even a set. Do you realize if he calls and the OP has say 66, he called all his chips in to runner runner full house? If you think calling all your chips with TPTK when it is a 9, I think you are the one that needs to learn poker. You are probably the guy who would call all in with the same hand on a flop of A62 because you have, LOL.

Well, I'm willing to guess that the OP was probably playing loose and dumb like this all night, he has a ton of chips, which means he's been playing a lot of hands(whether he's gotten lucky and hit a lot of his garbage hands, or whether he's gotten lucky with a great string of starting hands and played them doesn't make a difference. the fact that he's been playing a lot of hands makes me label him as loose.) now, since he's labeled as loose, and since it's quite possible that maybe he's made weird semi-bluff moves like this before... I would expect him to be on a flush draw...so yes, I'm going to make thatcall when I am a 65% favorite. it's about the player, not the cards... this guy was pegged as loose, he was pegged as a gambler, and I know he most likely would have played an overpair differently to try and extract money.the point that someone else made about the fact that this shows you are "willing to gamble, and wild" it only helps your table image if you tighten up once they know that... otherwise... everyone at the table knows you're willing to gamble, and wild.

[JistTheFist 0]

on a complete side not... for some reason I find that I almost ALWAYS disagree with SabaAba on strategy type threads... thank God I know I'm a good player otherwise I would be worried about disagreeing with this guy so much.in closing, sabaaba.... you're always wrong. you don't know how to play cards.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I agree.. i never once stated that A9 was a smart call. infact it was down right stupid.But by pushing all in, he is risking his chips up against 2 bets before him, and 3 other players after him.It wasnt necessary. if he had TT, or JJ, to answer your question. a raise to 3500 would have been a better play.A- The only way the other 2 original bets can call, is if they risk all their chips., B- He doesnt know what the players after him hold. there for he's not risking his chips against what could be 2 pair, or a set. Remember, even though he is chip leader, he is in a poor spot for a draw, but a great spot if it hits.So. to sum up my theory. Yes i would have pushed with TT, or JJ, etc.. But with the nut flush draw, i would have wanted to see what the turn brings rather than try to push everyone off this hand.

[JistTheFist 0]

oh for sure, because the 1000 might just get called by the A9,and then if you hit a club, there is a possibility that one of the other 3 players in the pot just picked up a smaller flush, there is a chance that first or second to act might move in because they want to steal on a scare card... there is a chance that you can put in smart-sized value bets that multiple people will call, and you will make the most off of your money....like they said 3 people giving $20 or one guy giving $50... also, if you don't hit... you risked waaaay less of your stack and came away just fine.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

 Well, I'm willing to guess that the OP was probably playing loose and dumb like this all night, he has a ton of chips, which means he's been playing a lot of hands(whether he's gotten lucky and hit a lot of his garbage hands, or whether he's gotten lucky with a great string of starting hands and played them doesn't make a difference. the fact that he's been playing a lot of hands makes me label him as loose.)  now, since he's labeled as loose, and since it's quite possible that maybe he's made weird semi-bluff moves like this before... I would expect him to be on a flush draw...so yes, I'm going to make thatcall when I am a 65% favorite. it's about the player, not the cards... this guy was pegged as loose, he was pegged as a gambler, and I know he most likely would have played an overpair differently to try and extract money.the point that someone else made about the fact that this shows you are "willing to gamble, and wild" it only helps your table image if you tighten up once they know that... otherwise... everyone at the table knows you're willing to gamble, and wild.

I guess I wouldn't have made the call with A9 for the same reason you would have. If he's that loose, I could see him on a set of sixes, deuces, maybe even a set of 9s, an over pair. a flush draw, even an open ended straight draw. Against any of those hands I'm not going to be doing any better than 60/40 for all of my chips in a tourney. I think this is probably a case where you need to be disciplined enough to lay down TPTK. His being loose and the chip leader means he can play really any two cards for that price. There's going to be better spots to capitalize on his loose/questionable play.

[JistTheFist 0]

 I guess I wouldn't have made the call with A9 for the same reason you would have. If he's that loose, I could see him on a set of sixes, deuces, maybe even a set of 9s,  an over pair. a flush draw, even an open ended straight draw.    Against any of those hands I'm not going to be doing any better than 60/40 for all of my chips in a tourney. I think this is probably a case where you need to be disciplined enough to lay down TPTK.    His being loose and the chip leader means he can play really any two cards for that price.      There's going to be better spots to capitalize on his loose/questionable play.

that's because your plan of action in this tourney seems to be to stay alive...where as my plan of action is to finish in first place...I do not see how being 2nd in chips... and being a 65% favorite to DOUBLE UP is a bad play at all.if you win this hand, you're a lock for a first place cruise-down......if you lose, you got outdrawn.... oh well.edit: not trying to come off as rude. I can see your point that you can fold and wait for a better time when you're more like an 80% to win.... but you might run cold for the next hour, so why not grab the opportunities when they come.... if it was a raise to a player I respected, yes it would be an easy fold...but since it's a raise from a "loose player" who plays suited aces with weak kickers from early position.. it's a good time to double up.

[SabaAba 0]

Yeah but if you are only trying to hit the turn, you are only a 19% shot, if you go all in, you pick up huge fold equity and you don't have to hit to win. That's the point you are missing. I don't want to lose chips if I miss, I want to win the pot and not have to hit. Also, royal your raise to 3500 is the same as going all in since everyone in it practically had less than that, except for the guy who ended up calling you. But he would most likely have reraised you the rest of his chips, just calling with A9 there seems dumb too, so you might as well go all in. And Jist, the reason he has a big chip lead, is not that he is loose, but that he is good. Maybe getting lucky sure I don't know him/her, but usually the player that has such a huge chip lead has it because they took care of the fish.And I'm sure you are a good player Jist, but because you disagree with me "ALMOST ALWAYS", doesn't mean I suck, it could mean we are both good but think differently. And seriously, if you make that call with A9, I don't think you are good. Especially if you put him on a flush draw. Bec, if you put him on flush draw, what cards do you think he has, A8c is the best you could hope he has, but maybe you put him on KQ or AJ, meaning you are giving him even more outs, and all of a sudden you are not 65% favorite, and you are only a coin flip and you are the one gambling.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

that's because your plan of action in this tourney seems to be to stay alive...where as my plan of action is to finish in first place...I do not see how being 2nd in chips... and being a 65% favorite to DOUBLE UP is a bad play at all.if you win this hand, you're a lock for a first place cruise-down......if you lose, you got outdrawn.... oh well.

I thought the whole point of tournaments was to stay alive. I understand what you're saying..but facing that kind of bet, I don't know how confident you can really be that you have the best hand. I don't think either of the two were really outstanding plays, but I understand your point.The more I really think about it..the more I wish I had been sitting at this table, doesn't seem like an entirely too talented bunch.

[JistTheFist 0]

sorry bro... but I've played in those freeroll tournaments at the "poker pubs" and "big league poker" and normally the guy with the early chip lead isn't the good player at all...it's the guys who call 4XBB from out of position holding 3,5 just cuz it's suited and get lucky, hit a flop, and eliminate four guys in one hand cuz it's a freeroll and everyone's playing like idiots...BUT, I wasn't trying to say he's not good, he could be very very tight and just be getting an amazing string of cards... but the thing is, after he plays so many hands, eventually I will label him as loose... also,.... I mean he played a suited ace from out of position, I'm guessing he really isn't that good. so I can put him on an ace and an undercard very easily.... BUT, even if he has Ax(overcard)I can give him 12 outs... 9-flush plus three over.I'm somewhere beteen 55-60% now... and since the point of tournaments is to finish in first place, and not just to stay alive... and since it WAS a freeroll, I'm going make this call because 55-60% of the time... I'm gonna get an easy coast into first place.

[SabaAba 0]

If you guys think the OP's play was bad you obviously don't understand fold equity, semi bluff and how to use a bug chip stack.I started a new thread so that Daniel can respond (hopefully), and you guys will see that I am right :-)

[bourbenz 0]

i don't think either play was wrong, personally! you cant know what the 2nd chip leader was thinking he might have had a good read and known his hand was best in that case his call was more than right, you cant win tournament scared of being outdrawn you have to play the winning hand sometimes for all your chips.But I also have pushed hard as chip leader on semi-bluffs as well and considering the stack sizes was an equally acceptable move( if you thought he would lay down if you were certain he would call than a push is obviously incorrect).