How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[crowTrobot 2]

Bingo. Faith IS the evidence.

evidence for what? hinduism? islam? scientology?

[Loismustdie 0]

I don't mind faith. You can have faith in things that are right, like gravity. You can have faith in things that are wrong, like not swimming after eating. You can have faith in Jesus or Allah or Zoroaster or Thor, and as long as you don't start attacking other people to force that belief on them, I don't care. [Which is what Crow's problem with belief is -- is HAS resulted in millions of people being attacked and murdered over the years.]But this statement ---- has always offended me intellectually. If you have to have prior belief in something in order for the evidence to seem true, then you're being scammed, and what you believe in is false, plain and simple. You don't have to "believe in" electricity for the light to come on when you flick the switch. You don't have to "believe in" convection for the oven to cook your food. These things are true independent of your belief or lack of belief, and that's how true things work. False things work by pressuring you to believe, like with rewards of heaven or fear of hell, or the chance at millions from a Nigerian diplomat, and then provide "evidence" that seems true only if you've already bought into the main premise and are looking to justify why you did that.My sister's quote is always "signs, miracles, and wonders follow those that believe." My response is "No, those that believe are primed to explain anything they don't fully understand as a "sign," a "miracle," or a "wonder," when it isn't. And they'll do that precisely BECAUSE they've been told over and over that "signs, miracles, and wonders" will follow them around like an oompah band at a polka festival."If the truth or falsity of something depends upon the perspective of the observer, then there is no independent truth in the thing. If there is independent truth in a thing, then the opinion of the observer doesn't matter.If you aren't satisfied with faith alone, and require evidence and claims of truth to back up your faith, than maybe your actual faith isn't really all that strong. This is what Crow, and I, and the excellent Dogma quote by PMJackson, are all saying.

Meanwhile, he tels us in the New Testament to not be a seeker of signs. Go figure.

[Loismustdie 0]

evidence for what? hinduism? islam? scientology?

Do we really need to do this? This is a waste of time.

[crowTrobot 2]

Precisely why evidence should never be the focus.

: )

[crowTrobot 2]

Do we really need to do this? This is a waste of time.

it is for you because you keep making retarded statements. obviously christians aren't the only believers with faith.

[Loismustdie 0]

: )

There are some interesting things biblically, but for the most part the evidence you are looking for and I look for are different. It does make me smile, because to get caught up in all that leads nowhere- either you believe or you don't. When he says "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen", he REALLY meant that, he wasn't being coy or secretive. He was basically telling christians even then,"Look, you can't PROVE this in worldly terms." So, why fight that? Why even find it neccesary? I will tell you why- lack of faith, and Buddhist lady nailed that. It's a lack of faith that drives one to prove there faith through physical means when it is clearly impossible- that's the whole POINT of faith.

[Loismustdie 0]

it is for you because you keep making retarded statements. obviously christians aren't the only believers with faith.

True. Except I am not talking about them. I never do. I am obviously talking about christianity.

[BuffDan 0]

True. Except I am not talking about them. I never do. I am obviously talking about christianity.

And the "faith" you use to justify your belief in Christianity others use to justify their belief in other religions, religions that you believe are wrong.It must take a lot of faith not to see the problem with this.

[Loismustdie 0]

And the "faith" you use to justify your belief in Christianity others use to justify their belief in other religions, religions that you believe are wrong.It must take a lot of faith not to see the problem with this.

It takes absolutely zero. You insinuate that I care, or think about it. I don't. Ever. Keep in mind that my beliefs condemn myself as well. Nobody would think like that if they could find a way around it.

[xfrodobagginsx 0]

Is that owen wilson in that picture?

[Spademan 94]

Only God can produce faith in a person. And only if that person is seeking Him.

This is always my favorite.The old "if you just believe it then you will believe it" routine. I always point it out, but the people who say it never realize how stupid it is."If you look for him (believe in him, why else would you be looking?) then you will get that warm fuzzy feeling and know it's true!!!"The absurdity of this is startling. Of course if you believe in him then you'll believe him him.And lois, it's remarkable how willing you are to admit the terrible weakness and cultural subjectivity of your beliefs. You don't ever think about other religions and how they have EXACTLY the same claims and truth and warm fuzzy feelings you do about your particular superstition. Compartmentalization is a wonderful thing.

[Balloon guy 158]

Many on the Christian side see the issue of only being able to accept Christ after God 'calls' you to be a more humbling issue. We are not worthy through our works to figure it out, or to place a demand on God to forgive us.From this perspective, we are placing all the credit on God for helping us see the truth.It's more of a reverence of the process then the contridiction you guys apply to it.God gives you a 'calling'. You can choose to respond or not. Should you choose to, God gives you Grace and Faith. Then you ask for forgiveness, and God forgives and writes your name in the Lamb's Book of Life. Heaven, unlimited rounds of golf, airplanes that don't run out of fuel, really well made cigars, and twinkie buffets await. But you guys got life on earth, the peak of your existence. oh and certain death.I can see your objections. It's very nobel, almost regal: Standing firm against God because He didn't present things in the way you demand He do it. I'm sure that time you get to tell Him why you demand He change the rules to fit your opinion of how things should be will be very self-satisfying. After all, some of you are going to bet your soul on it.

[Balloon guy 158]

If the truth or falsity of something depends upon the perspective of the observer, then there is no independent truth in the thing. If there is independent truth in a thing, then the opinion of the observer doesn't matter.If you aren't satisfied with faith alone, and require evidence and claims of truth to back up your faith, than maybe your actual faith isn't really all that strong. This is what Crow, and I, and the excellent Dogma quote by PMJackson, are all saying.

Although your perspective is reasonable, try looking at this from another issue.You and others on here want us to explain why Christianity is the truth. Using logic, science, math whatever, you want a clearly logical definitive set of data that leaves you with no choice but to say: "This religion is the absolute end all truth."Then we would all fall down and worship God and years from now, 3-4 people sitting in a coffee house and one of them would say: "What about free will?" Is it possible to choose not to believe, if there was a big cosmic neon sign that defies all known laws and reason saying Believe or Else, how could we be allowed to make any other choice?Fo the rest of you ( crow )This is in rebutal to the above post. Not the reason to believe. So please save the valueable interweb space from the: "All religions are exactly the same so this proves them all doesn't it" response. Since religions are in fact not the same, all the other ones have dead and buried founders, Christianity has a risen One. The others have a plan of works for you to accomplish, Christianity clearly says no works will work. Christianity has answered prophecy, from hundreds of years, other do not. Christianity also has a collection of books written under the direction of God, in the common language of the people to allow everyone easy access to the whole truth. So even though your pat answer someone wrote down and you think is clear proof to debunk Christianity is catchy, it is so clearly loaded with falsehood that you should be ashamed to use it as often as you do.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Heaven, unlimited rounds of golf, airplanes that don't run out of fuel, really well made cigars, and twinkie buffets await. But you guys got life on earth, the peak of your existence. oh and certain death.I can see your objections. It's very nobel, almost regal: Standing firm against God because He didn't present things in the way you demand He do it. I'm sure that time you get to tell Him why you demand He change the rules to fit your opinion of how things should be will be very self-satisfying. After all, some of you are going to bet your soul on it.

Wow, scare tactics. This would really have frightened me into being a Christian... if I was a 6 year old. There's also a monster under my bed who will jump out and grab me if my feet are on the ground when the lights go off, so every night I'm sure to jump into bed as fast as I can whenever I flip the switch. What? You don't do that too? Well, you're betting your life that it's not true. And you'll be REALLY SORRY if it is!

[LongLiveYorke 38]

I can see your objections. It's very nobel, almost regal: Standing firm against God because He didn't present things in the way you demand He do it. I'm sure that time you get to tell Him why you demand He change the rules to fit your opinion of how things should be will be very self-satisfying. After all, some of you are going to bet your soul on it.

So, many of us object to the idea of the Christian God because it makes no logical sense to us. The rules that he present are contradictory and nonsensical to us. Your rebuttal against this idea is that God doesn't care what our minds think makes sense. God didn't make his rules to conform to human logic and standards. Fine.But then how can you claim to believe in God based on a feeling, or a hunch, or faith, or whatever you call it. Clearly you're going to lose the evidence battle. But that's fine, you've moved past that. But why is my faith against the image of a Christian God irreverent where as yours is the basis for your belief?I mean, is it really all that crazy to not believe in a god who conforms to no logical scrutiny and no physical evidence?

[crowTrobot 2]

You and others on here want us to explain why Christianity is the truth. Using logic, science, math whatever, you want a clearly logical definitive set of data that leaves you with no choice but to say: "This religion is the absolute end all truth."Then we would all fall down and worship God and years from now, 3-4 people sitting in a coffee house and one of them would say: "What about free will?" Is it possible to choose not to believe, if there was a big cosmic neon sign that defies all known laws and reason saying Believe or Else, how could we be allowed to make any other choice?

what about the opposite? does someone who sees conclusive evidence that christianity is false (as most of the people in the world do) also lack free will? formulating beliefs based on evidence IS free will. duh.

Fo the rest of you ( crow )This is in rebutal to the above post. Not the reason to believe. So please save the valueable interweb space from the: "All religions are exactly the same so this proves them all doesn't it" response.

i never said they made the exact same claims in detail, just the same types of claims.

Since religions are in fact not the same, all the other ones have dead and buried founders, Christianity has a risen One.

most of the people in the world aren't going to just assume that's true obviously, and aren't in a position to believe that based on faith any more than you are in a position to believe muhammad's claims based on faith. how can you prove the resurrection is objective fact to them?

The others have a plan of works for you to accomplish, Christianity clearly says no works will work.

the specific requirements for salvation are trivial. some cults make similar demands.

Christianity has answered prophecy, from hundreds of years, other do not.

i think it takes slightly less wild imagination to believe judaism's claims of answered prophecy than it does christianity's

Christianity also has a collection of books written under the direction of God, in the common language of the people to allow everyone easy access to the whole truth.

nothing unique about that claim obviously (see koran)

So even though your pat answer someone wrote down and you think is clear proof to debunk Christianity is catchy, it is so clearly loaded with falsehood that you should be ashamed to use it as often as you do.

yawn

[Balloon guy 158]

So, many of us object to the idea of the Christian God because it makes no logical sense to us. The rules that he present are contradictory and nonsensical to us. Your rebuttal against this idea is that God doesn't care what our minds think makes sense. God didn't make his rules to conform to human logic and standards. Fine.But then how can you claim to believe in God based on a feeling, or a hunch, or faith, or whatever you call it. Clearly you're going to lose the evidence battle. But that's fine, you've moved past that. But why is my faith against the image of a Christian God irreverent where as yours is the basis for your belief?I mean, is it really all that crazy to not believe in a god who conforms to no logical scrutiny and no physical evidence?

My argument posted above was in response to being told exactly what you are saying to me. Somehow my Faith is not worthy to be even considered, because I don't present it in a manner that fits your world view of what criteria must be met before an idea can be true. And it's not a quanitfyable thing, but I am supposed to use your logic / reason methods to explain it. So I point out that the methods / reasons I used are not science based, and I am told my beliefs are no different than scientology. Okay.My faith, which I do not believe is based on non-conformity to human logic and reason btw, my faith is what I have in what I believe. In the Bible this Faith is given a beginning, and I attribute it to that beginning. It is also given and Author, and my giving Him the Praise for being the author of my Faith isn't a dodge, it's a humility check and balance. I don't try to explain this faith vie Freudian psychology because Freudian schools of thought are not relevant, nor is quantum physics, or english lit. Why must I meet your demands for truth? Unless you guys are ready to declare your truth the only truth.

[Balloon guy 158]

Wow, scare tactics. This would really have frightened me into being a Christian... if I was a 6 year old. There's also a monster under my bed who will jump out and grab me if my feet are on the ground when the lights go off, so every night I'm sure to jump into bed as fast as I can whenever I flip the switch. What? You don't do that too? Well, you're betting your life that it's not true. And you'll be REALLY SORRY if it is!

Here's a better one. I call it the Madden WagerYou have a favorite team.I have a favorite teamCrow has a favorite teamWe all claim our team is bestBut come Superbowl, only one team will be right, the other teams will be wrong. Even though they will have all the excuses in the world why the refs were blind or the snow negated their teams strengths.There is only one winner.The Maddan Wager

[Balloon guy 158]

what about the opposite? does someone who sees conclusive evidence that christianity is false (as most of the people in the world do) also lack free will?

Again you go with the numbers mean something. Most people believe as you do? I will wait for you to present a link showing you have this knowledge, unless you are basing this on faith?

formulating beliefs based on evidence IS free will. duh.

But does it mean that your conclsions are correct? Or does it mean that your conclusions could be correct?

i never said they made the exact same claims in detail, just the same types of claims.

Many other religions make no claims simlar to Christianity, I'll assume you meant other ones then. Maybe you should be more specific next time.

most of the people in the world aren't going to just assume that's true obviously, and aren't in a position to believe that based on faith any more than you are in a position to believe muhammad's claims based on faith. how can you prove the resurrection is objective fact to them?

Again with the numbers lend itself to truth, you do this a lot crow. It really is a big chink iin your armor. The Bible has the job of proving itself, not me silly.

the specific requirements for salvation are trivial. some cults make similar demands.

that's because you have little to no concept of comparetive religions, or you are ignoring it.

i think it takes slightly less wild imagination to believe judaism's claims of answered prophecy than it does christianity's

Wait, are you saying that another religion has a [slightly] greater chance of being true?????I thought all religions were equally crazy. You have now admitted that SOME religions have greater merit to their faith. Thank you for finally being remotely intellectually honest. And btw Christianity is the fullfillment of Jewish Prophecy, so you're backhanded compliment is going in the ( use when crow tries to argue all faith is equally crazy line ) bank.

nothing unique about that claim obviously (see koran)

Anyday you want to compare the koran with the Bible I am game. Let's start with authors.

yawn

How can you be tired already? you do know that your enemy God, doesn't get tired.Maybe you should switch your war to stopping poverty, cause you may not be up to winning against God.

[crowTrobot 2]

Here's a better one. I call it the Madden WagerYou have a favorite team.I have a favorite teamCrow has a favorite teamWe all claim our team is bestBut come Superbowl, only one team will be right, the other teams will be wrong. Even though they will have all the excuses in the world why the refs were blind or the snow neated their teams strengths.There is only one winner.The Maddan Wager

do you even listen to yourself?

[Balloon guy 158]

do you even listen to yourself?

You're just mad because you've lowered your guard and admitted that some religions are more worthy of belief than others.Oh and numbers are relevant to a hypothosis's inherant truth.

[crowTrobot 2]

Again you go with the numbers mean something. Most people believe as you do? I will wait for you to present a link showing you have this knowledge, unless you are basing this on faith?

you really think all of the non-christians in the world think there's a reasonable chance christianity is true but reject it anyway? that's the implication you're making.

But does it mean that your conclsions are correct? Or does it mean that your conclusions could be correct?

conclusions based on evidence are considered to have at least a high probability of being correct. don't have to deal in absolutes to draw reasonable conclusions.

The Bible has the job of proving itself, not me silly.

it seems to need your help since it's only running about a ~30% success rate.

Wait, are you saying that another religion has a [slightly]greater chance of being true?????

you could make that argument on statistical grounds, although it's pointless because the odds for all are vanishingly small enough to be effectively zero.

And btw Christianity is the fullfillment of Jewish Prophecy

christians think so, jews don't obviously.

Anyday you want to compare the koran with the Bible I am game. Let's start with authors.

why? they both claim to be the word of god delivered through man. so does the book of mormon. the bible is far from unique in that respect.

[crowTrobot 2]

You're just mad because you've lowered your guard and admitted that some religions are more worthy of belief than others.

obviously i didn't say that. i said some require slightly less wild imagination on the part of believers that others. just because one is slightly less insane than another doesn't make it any more worthy of belief. stop misquoting : )

[Balloon guy 158]

obviously i didn't say that. i said some require slightly less wild imagination on the part of believers that others. just because one is slightly less insane than another doesn't make it any more worthy of belief. stop misquoting : )

Sorry, granting merit on the level of insanity does in fact make one better than another.This is now known as the Crow Theorum.

[Balloon guy 158]

you really think all of the non-christians in the world think there's a reasonable chance christianity is true but reject it anyway? that's the implication you're making.

And you are making the implication that you can speak for what most of the world thinks.

it seems to need your help since it's only running about a ~30% success rate.

Really, 30% of the Bible is correct? Which 30% please?Or is that 30% of the world thinks it's correct?What percentage believes in Darwinian evolution/ I bet it's less.Therefore with your logic: Bible > Darwin

you could make that argument on statistical grounds, although it's pointless because the odds for all are vanishingly small enough to be effectively zero.

you can squirm, but you are stuck, Judaism is better than otehr religions is what you said. More believable.

christians think so, jews don't obviously.

Many do ( Jews for Jesus )

why? they both claim to be the word of god delivered through man. so does the book of mormon. the bible is far from unique in that respect.

Ohh, let's compare the literary value of teh book of mormons to the Bible. Please.If you are so sure they are equal it should be a snap for you.I'll even give you that we have found zero anthropoligal backing for the stories in the book of Mormon, but most every archeologist ackowledges the Bible is very accurate wh n it comes to history.