Nut Flush On Paired Board Against

[d0c 0]

Reads: SB and UTG uber calling stations. UTG played 90% hands, SB maybe 80%. My image nit TAG (but I'm guessing they didn't pay attention). They were sations postflop also (calling 100% bets on flop and maybe folding turn/river).On one of previous hands SB called c-bet on Axx all spade board with 94 offsuite (four was a spade) and value bet when fourth spade fall on turn. I also saw SB and UTG minbet (and minraise on top of that) after flop alot. When SB made minbet all streets postlflop he folded when UTG made real bet on river.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)saw flop|saw showdownCO ($46.55)Hero ($25.90)SB ($27.55)BB ($15.60)UTG ($14.40)MP ($24.65)Preflop: Hero is Button with K , A . UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, SB calls $1.65, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.50.Flop: ($5.50) T , T , Q (3 players)SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.Turn: ($5.50) 8 (3 players)SB bets $0.25, UTG folds, Hero calls $0.25.River: ($6) 7 (2 players)SB bets $2.75, Hero raises to $12.5, SB raises to $25.55, Hero calls $11.40 (All-In).Final Pot: $53.80I felt AKs was good enough hand to valuebet preflop (I was sure both UTG and SB calls pretty much any amount ATC). Was it right to valuebet preflop?Comments on river please.

[cwik 0]

Yes you should be raising AK preflop.I would bet the flop in position. I don't mind the value reraise on the river. I hate the shove, but I probably make the crying call, cause he can have the smaller flush here or really poorly played trip tens or straight.

[d0c 0]

I was 90% sure that at least one of the calling stations will call my flop bet (as they did many times before). I thought i would give my self cheap draw (as they didn't bet much on flop ever).

[pt special 0]

if they are station i generally make a very big raise preflop to try to inflate the pot for when i do flop bigon the flop its pretty horrible for you because if the are station they are pretty much never flolding so i like the ck on the flopnow the turn, here is where it gets a little bit weirder, you can either take the free card by just callin the 25c or you raise...it really depends on what you feel hes calling you with and how you feel your hand plays vs his range it looks like he has a really big hand or a mid pair and i dont think hes going to be folding a mid pair...even a draw, its pretty weak to not raise right here but vs 2 fish calling station that will probably pay off a big river bet if you hit i dont mind just callingnow the river...its a pretty sick spot to be in, you made a really big raise which i think limits what you are getting called with, and you are kind of trapping yourself into the hand, idk if i ever really see a fold here but the shove after that big of a raise looks really really really strong, i think we see qt or 77 here a lot of the time.....or 6s

[d0c 0]

If I had raised smaller (say 8$), could it ever be fold after he shoves? I would include any T and any flush and J9 in his range (maybe even QJ+ and some other pairs)

[pt special 0]

If I had raised smaller (say 8$), could it ever be fold after he shoves? I would include any T and any flush and J9 in his range (maybe even QJ+ and some other pairs)

if you think his range is that wide then you have to call....im really not sure if his range there is going to be that wide ever...even from a horrible player, but if he has shown the willingness to get it allin with that weak of hands then i snap call and feel very good about it

[d0c 0]

I don't have real tells to back up that range as I hadn't seen them play such a big pot during the session. I was very eager to make big hand and take their money, so my range might be off.Range QT,T8,T7,88,77,*s*s gives still 50% equity

[pt special 0]

I don't have real tells to back up that range as I hadn't seen them play such a big pot during the session. I was very eager to make big hand and take their money, so my range might be off.Range QT,T8,T7,88,77,*s*s gives still 50% equity

ya i think you have to call here

[Scott3705 0]

standard

[krup24 0]

standard and i also take the free card on the flop.

[pdr87 0]

I felt AKs was good enough hand to valuebet preflop (I was sure both UTG and SB calls pretty much any amount ATC). Was it right to valuebet preflop?Comments on river please.

Of course you raise AKs on the button preflop. What else are you suppose to do? It's wise to check behind on the flop against these players. Take the "free" card on the turn. No point in raising when you have the NFD and he makes a $0.25 bet into a $5.50 pot. You don't want to blow of a weaker FD.The way this hand played out, I think we have to felt it on the river. We often see a smaller flush here. Sometimes he has a FH, but, if so, he played it horrible.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Reads: SB and UTG uber calling stations. .... Was it right to valuebet preflop?Comments on river please.

Yes. Calling stations do tend to make some hands, so it's not out of the question that you're beaten. I think if he has less than you, he "calls." So I don't know what to make of the shove. For uber-uber calling stations that have stacked off a couple times, I go ahead and play for it all on the river. For standard calling stations, I think I play a little slower -- raise less -- and maybe I don't get shoved on. I think the way it played out, you should call. Whatever happens, mark them as a friend and value bet the piss out of them every time they play.

[StilettoNole 0]

I agree that a call is in order here. I think that villain shows up with a lower flush quite a bit. I make the call and if he shows up with a full house then hit my rebuy for the max and make a note.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Yes you should be raising AK preflop.I would bet the flop in position. I don't mind the value reraise on the river. I hate the shove, but I probably make the crying call, cause he can have the smaller flush here or really poorly played trip tens or straight.

Meh, I probably check the flop. Against multiple opponents who are gonna call my bet with all sorts of stuff, I can't see much reason to be betting on the flop.On the river, I agree with cwik. Plus, it's like "I have nut floooooooooosh, allllllllllll innnnnnnnnnnn!"

[d0c 0]

As I said they did let go of their hands on turn and river, but never before flop or on the flop. So this shove seems really strong.I guess everything is said for the river: * make smaller raise on river (to get any T to call more frequently) * call anything he 3betsI'm still left wondering how to play _two_ uber calling stations out of position as there is no FE on C-BETs. Any thread link?

[Royal_Tour 0]

flop check is standard IMO multi way.turn, why is there no raise?this is where the hand should be played IMO. I make a raise to about 2.50 this will keep any FD in, and most 10's come over the top. then it becomes a case of, whats the raise, how many outs do we have, are we drawing dead already, etc etc.... small PP's and other junk who wont pay off your hand will fold. which is good and saves us bets if they fill up on the river.So we want FD's and OESD's to stay in, we should also be happy with a fold on the turn. to take this pot.

[d0c 0]

Why raise draw against stations? As I checked the flop I gave away my lead. When I raise turn what hand I'm representing to station so that he would consider folding?Raising draws needs FE to be profitable? No?

[pt special 0]

flop check is standard IMO multi way.turn, why is there no raise?this is where the hand should be played IMO. I make a raise to about 2.50 this will keep any FD in, and most 10's come over the top. then it becomes a case of, whats the raise, how many outs do we have, are we drawing dead already, etc etc.... small PP's and other junk who wont pay off your hand will fold. which is good and saves us bets if they fill up on the river.So we want FD's and OESD's to stay in, we should also be happy with a fold on the turn. to take this pot.

usually this is a raise 100 percent of the time, but if villians are as much of a calling station as he says they are they arent folding anything so i think i like taking a free turn card

[Royal_Tour 0]

Why raise draw against stations? As I checked the flop I gave away my lead. When I raise turn what hand I'm representing to station so that he would consider folding?Raising draws needs FE to be profitable? No?

because your read is calling stations who call preflop, and on the flop, but often fold turns, and rivers.this is the turn. I understand that you didnt bet the flop, but thats fine, they dont know they are calling stations, so they wont question why you didnt bet.they might think you missed, but when you raise his turn bet, before calling he'll at least ponder the idea that you're slowplaying something.

[d0c 0]

They were folding turn/river but I still think there is not enough FE as I didn't keep the pressure on. Closing the action only for 25 cents is good investment.Results: I was drawing dead on turn. He showed T8 offsuit and scooped.Just needed reassurance of my play. Thx

[Royal_Tour 0]

They were folding turn/river but I still think there is not enough FE as I didn't keep the pressure on. Closing the action only for 25 cents is good investment.Results: I was drawing dead on turn. He showed T8 offsuit and scooped.Just needed reassurance of my play. Thx

but you raise the turn and he calls, means he has something. also means you might slow down on the river.or he 3 bets you on the turn and you know his weak lead was that of strength.i hate to seem results based now, but i really think u need to pop the turn for information sake. u turned the hand into an expensive cooler on the end when it wasnt much of a pot

[Royal_Tour 0]

flop check is standard IMO multi way.turn, why is there no raise?this is where the hand should be played IMO. I make a raise to about 2.50 this will keep any FD in, and most 10's come over the top. then it becomes a case of, whats the raise, how many outs do we have, are we drawing dead already, etc etc....

[d0c 0]

These guys are stations, meaning they play ATC. How can you differenciate trip tens/weak Q from fullhouse on turn when he flat calls my raise or reraises me (probably minreraise). When he flats my 2.5 turn bet. Theres 10$ in pot and we both have little more than 20$. What we do on the river after hitting our hand? Fold to his lead? Call his non-shove bet? These are only ways to not go broke on this hand.When he min-reraises to 5, we have 12.5 in pot and 2,5 to call. Do we fold now? What about hitting our hand on river and having little more than PSB left in our stack (can we fold then to shove)?When he makes decent raise it'd be clear fold. Now we didn't give ourselves a chance to milk money from trip tens.Playing against ATC type a guy has quite high variance. I can't see how I can decrease the variance without leaving money on table by folding my non-nut strong hands.

[Royal_Tour 0]

These guys are stations, meaning they play ATC. How can you differenciate trip tens/weak Q from fullhouse on turn when he flat calls my raise or reraises me (probably minreraise). When he flats my 2.5 turn bet. Theres 10$ in pot and we both have little more than 20$. What we do on the river after hitting our hand? Fold to his lead? Call his non-shove bet? These are only ways to not go broke on this hand.When he min-reraises to 5, we have 12.5 in pot and 2,5 to call. Do we fold now? What about hitting our hand on river and having little more than PSB left in our stack (can we fold then to shove)?When he makes decent raise it'd be clear fold. Now we didn't give ourselves a chance to milk money from trip tens.Playing against ATC type a guy has quite high variance. I can't see how I can decrease the variance without leaving money on table by folding my non-nut strong hands.

you're missing the point. more often than not, you need to associate the behavior of the player and the betting. You said yourself, calling stations. That to me says they arent very good players.Usually a calling station is a sign of someone who really doesnt understand the game all too well. however, you are playing online, so he understands it enouhg to want to play it online.1st example.he min bet into a pot of 24bb;s. a stupid and pointless play only used by someone who doesnt know what they are doing and why they are doing it.You need to find out if he is doing this as a cheap way to get people to fold, or if its because he has a monster and wants to appear weak while still getting some chips in the pot.so a raise here will find it out. Because even though he is a calling station, he will still give up a weak hand on the turn to a large enoug raise. The more i think about it, the more it doesnt make sense for him to have a FD. he's a calling station and a pretty bad one at that, so its safe to say he doesnt make a 1bb bet with a flush drawso you raise and he calls....would he slow play a boat? my thinking is yes. infact, most players will slow play a boat in this spot. so if you raise and he calls, he obviously has something.Now again, back to the fact that he is a calling station, it might be possible for him to call again with trash.river comes and it gives you the nut flush.calling stations dont tend to be the aggressors. This will be your first sign when he leads out with a bet. if he does so you can guarantee he has at least trips.if he checks to you on the river, I would bet. its bad luck and he got lucky u made a big hand. But i have a feeling that he will be betting. In the end it all comes down to your ability to outplay these guys.I'm a strong believer that saving bets when you're beat is as good as making value when you're ahead.

[d0c 0]

As I described in "reads" section he bet out 4 high flush for value. Why wouldn't he bet trips for value on river? I can't see how we can put him exactly on FH bet the turn and he lets us see the flush on river (by flatting or minraising). We can assume he has more often than not FH but not 100%. Range TT,TQ,T8,T7,88,77,AT,KT,Qs*s is skewed heavily toward FH (as i've left out a lot of tens and alot of flushes) but I think all these hands might play exactly the same way. This range gives me 43% equity. Still fold?On the other hand I feel sometimes I play poorly against stations. Station comes out firing on river should sound off the alarm bells.Other thoughts/opinions on RT comments, please!