Flush Decision On The River

[Scott3705 0]

.5/1 6-max (5 handed)Hero button (175) 6 7 Villian CO covers (No PT going, but I'd imagine he was somewhere around 30-35/20)Folds to Villian who raises 3, Hero calls, blinds foldFLOP ($7)8 5 K Villian bets $5, Hero callsTURN ($17)J :heart:villians bets $15, hero callsRiver 10 ($47)Villians bets $15, hero raises to $50, Villian reraises all-in, $100 more to call. Questions on hand:1. Obviously I usually raise this flop. This player was pretty aggressive preflop and 2&3 barrelled a lot. He had gotten caught a few orbits ago. Basically here, I can't get everything in the middle with these stacks at the flop. Also, I had been calling him down thin and he had caught on and started making his bets larger at the turn. (15 minutes before this, his bets would have been F:$4-5, T:$10-12.) I figure I need to call behind with some strong hand and some draws in order to be able to call behind him frequently.2. Should I have raised the turn? Taking into account that I want to be able to call behind with strong hands and marginal hands here. 3. River, obvious question.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Don't flat call when you hit your flush on the turn if you're not sure if he could have flushed as well.Don't suddenly wake up and raise on the river if you're not going to call the re-raise.Don't chase flushes if you can't bet them when you make them.So basically... with the way you played this hand, you have to call, and you should expect to be ahead.

[mtdesmoines 3]

.5/1 6-max (5 handed)Hero button (175) 6 7 Villian CO covers (No PT going, but I'd imagine he was somewhere around 30-35/20)Folds to Villian who raises 3, Hero calls, blinds foldFLOP ($7)8 5 K Villian bets $5, Hero callsTURN ($17)J :heart:villians bets $15, hero callsRiver 10 ($47)Villians bets $15, hero raises to $50, Villian reraises all-in, $100 more to call. Questions on hand:1. Obviously I usually raise this flop. This player was pretty aggressive preflop and 2&3 barrelled a lot. He had gotten caught a few orbits ago. Basically here, I can't get everything in the middle with these stacks at the flop. Also, I had been calling him down thin and he had caught on and started making his bets larger at the turn. (15 minutes before this, his bets would have been F:$4-5, T:$10-12.) I figure I need to call behind with some strong hand and some draws in order to be able to call behind him frequently.2. Should I have raised the turn? Taking into account that I want to be able to call behind with strong hands and marginal hands here. 3. River, obvious question.

The turn wouldn't be a bad place to raise, but doing that would not have let the villain hit his straight and fire as hard at you as hard as he did. Oh, yeah ... given what you told us about the villain, I call here.

[Scott3705 0]

Don't flat call when you hit your flush on the turn if you're not sure if he could have flushed as well.Don't suddenly wake up and raise on the river if you're not going to call the re-raise.Don't chase flushes if you can't bet them when you make them.So basically... with the way you played this hand, you have to call, and you should expect to be ahead.

Of course he could have a flush, but that's not really in my thought process until the river. I'm not "gripped with fear" the entire hand here. I'm assuming that I'm ahead here until he wakes up on the river. Also, me waking up on the river, I don't expect to see him come over the top here. I'm not smooth calling a flush on the river here with no pair on the board. That's just silly. Having slow-played the turn the river is an obvious raise. I shouldn't be calling if I think i'm behind afterwards just because I shouldn't raise if I intend to fold. If I'm folding, I think I'm ahead when I make the raise and then get more information that makes me think I'm behind.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Don't flat call when you hit your flush on the turn if you're not sure if he could have flushed as well.

Why not? It adds deception becuase it makes our hand look less like a flush. How do you become sure that he has a bigger flush and if he does, flat calling is also better becuase it keeps the pot under control.

Don't suddenly wake up and raise on the river if you're not going to call the re-raise.

While this is often true, you can always reevaluate and if you get the feeling that he has to have you beat when he reraies, then you fold. It sucks, but it happens.

Don't chase flushes if you can't bet them when you make them.So basically... with the way you played this hand, you have to call, and you should expect to be ahead.

The only reason not to chase flushes is when you're not getting the correct odds to do so. As far as the relative strength of the hand, it's obv better to make the nut flush, but if you're getting the right odds (assuming you don't put him on a bigger FD) then you draw to the flush.Scott - I like the way you played the hand. I posted in RT's thread that it's important to stay consistent with how you're playing a certain opponent. For example, don't lead when you flop a set when you've checked to him in literally every other pot that you've played. Here, based on your reads, this is an obvious call. I like how you played the hand and the background that you gave with it was really helpful. I would expect to see a flush here sometimes, but the 2.5-1 pot odds still make this call very profitable IMO.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Of course he could have a flush, but that's not really in my thought process until the river. I'm not "gripped with fear" the entire hand here. I'm assuming that I'm ahead here until he wakes up on the river. Also, me waking up on the river, I don't expect to see him come over the top here. I'm not smooth calling a flush on the river here with no pair on the board. That's just silly. Having slow-played the turn the river is an obvious raise. I shouldn't be calling if I think i'm behind afterwards just because I shouldn't raise if I intend to fold. If I'm folding, I think I'm ahead when I make the raise and then get more information that makes me think I'm behind.

I'm just saying that stacks aren't nearly deep enough here where you should ever consider folding, and that when you play suited connectors and get into spots like this, getting flush over flushed is the price you pay sometimes for playing them passively throughout the hand.Obviously I'm going to tell you to raise the flop and raise the turn, same as 99% of thinking players will tell you to do, and this is the reason why.

[Scott3705 0]

Scott - I like the way you played the hand. I posted in RT's thread that it's important to stay consistent with how you're playing a certain opponent. For example, don't lead when you flop a set when you've checked to him in literally every other pot that you've played. Here, based on your reads, this is an obvious call. I like how you played the hand and the background that you gave with it was really helpful. I would expect to see a flush here sometimes, but the 2.5-1 pot odds still make this call very profitable IMO.

At the river, my mind was grappling with the price I was being laid which was favorable, and the sheer size of the bet which was a full-buy in. I had a hard time thinking he would risk that much with anything a lot less than a flush. (psychological aspect of the size of the raise.) Any thought to how his bet looks like a blocker bet at first? I hadn't been attacking blocker bets or anything.Nice to the stamp of approval for the rest of the hand.

[NoBBiR 0]

I'm not folding the river based on the way the hand played out. The only logical hands that have us beat are A10hh and AQhh. He could have a weirder flush if he is a LAG, but I'm more than willing to go busto on this hand. I def. expect to be ahead here more than often enough to make this profitable.I like everything about the rest of the way you played the hand though.

At the river, my mind was grappling with the price I was being laid which was favorable, and the sheer size of the bet which was a full-buy in. I had a hard time thinking he would risk that much with anything a lot less than a flush. (psychological aspect of the size of the raise.) Any thought to how his bet looks like a blocker bet at first? I hadn't been attacking blocker bets or anything.Nice to the stamp of approval for the rest of the hand.

This is true, it is hard to believe he would be willing to risk that much with less than a flush. But I have seen much stupider things happen. I just don't know whether the bet on the river was a blocker, or a value bet. Regardless, especially after you raise, you're not folding.

[mtdesmoines 3]

At the river, my mind was grappling with the price I was being laid which was favorable, and the sheer size of the bet which was a full-buy in. I had a hard time thinking he would risk that much with anything a lot less than a flush. (psychological aspect of the size of the raise.) Any thought to how his bet looks like a blocker bet at first? I hadn't been attacking blocker bets or anything.Nice to the stamp of approval for the rest of the hand.

It's a straight. He rivered a straight. He isn't putting you on the flush because of your smooth call when you hit it.

[Acid_Knight 2]

At the river, my mind was grappling with the price I was being laid which was favorable, and the sheer size of the bet which was a full-buy in. I had a hard time thinking he would risk that much with anything a lot less than a flush. (psychological aspect of the size of the raise.) Any thought to how his bet looks like a blocker bet at first? I hadn't been attacking blocker bets or anything.Nice to the stamp of approval for the rest of the hand.

The flat call on the turn will make him think it's less likely that you have a flush. His blocker bet on the river seems weak and maybe he intended to have you raise it. Maybe he has a set and thinks he's trapping you. He could have AQ. I understand the psychological aspects of raising a whole buyin, but the way you described the villain and the way that you chose to play the hand means this is a call. Against a different villain, this is a pretty easy fold. Just not here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I'm not folding the river based on the way the hand played out. The only logical hands that have us beat are A10hh and AQhh. He could have a weirder flush if he is a LAG, but I'm more than willing to go busto on this hand. I def. expect to be ahead here more than often enough to make this profitable.

AKhh, KQhh, KThh, K9hh, QThh, T9hh and really Axhh are all very likely possibilites. There are a lot of playable heart draws out there.

[Scott3705 0]

I'm just saying that stacks aren't nearly deep enough here where you should ever consider folding, and that when you play suited connectors and get into spots like this, getting flush over flushed is the price you pay sometimes for playing them passively throughout the hand.Obviously I'm going to tell you to raise the flop and raise the turn, same as 99% of thinking players will tell you to do, and this is the reason why.

I am fairly deep though. Not monstrous stacks, but I've still invested less than 1/2 my stack here. (Obviously not referring to the tournament sense of stacks.) I don't know how I shouldn't consider it. His move shows a lot of strength. Also, how does playing them passively change the flush over flush? are you telling me to bet/fold the turn? I don't agree with playing suited connectors fast to define your hand so that you can fold it like it's TPTK. It's too strong of a hand to play it that cautiously.Are you saying I'm not a thinking player?

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Any two hearts are playable when your opponent has shown 0 strength

FYP :)But yah, same principle.

[NoBBiR 0]

AKhh, KQhh, KThh, K9hh, QThh, T9hh and really Axhh are all very likely possibilites. There are a lot of playable heart draws out there.

Oh woops, I thought the K on the flop was one of the two hearts. Nevermind.

[channjalen2003 0]

I am fairly deep though. Not monstrous stacks, but I've still invested less than 1/2 my stack here. (Obviously not referring to the tournament sense of stacks.) I don't know how I shouldn't consider it. His move shows a lot of strength. Also, how does playing them passively change the flush over flush? are you telling me to bet/fold the turn? I don't agree with playing suited connectors fast to define your hand so that you can fold it like it's TPTK. It's too strong of a hand to play it that cautiously.Are you saying I'm not a thinking player?

I think a raise on the flop would have him think AK or KQ and it would not define your hand as suited connectors. I raise this flop 100 % of the time and hope to make str8 obviously and not flush. Although if flush hits I am obviously not disapointed. A 3x raise on flop looks much more like TPTK then suited connectors. Although I agree a fold on river is not out of the question. I just think if you played it a little stronger from the beginning you might have a better idea for his range of hands.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

I am fairly deep though. Not monstrous stacks, but I've still invested less than 1/2 my stack here. (Obviously not referring to the tournament sense of stacks.) I don't know how I shouldn't consider it. His move shows a lot of strength. Also, how does playing them passively change the flush over flush? are you telling me to bet/fold the turn? I don't agree with playing suited connectors fast to define your hand so that you can fold it like it's TPTK. It's too strong of a hand to play it that cautiously.Are you saying I'm not a thinking player?

There's still a percentage point in there for other thinking players to existPlus a minimum of 20% to compensate for natural poker player exaggeration.

[Scott3705 0]

I think a raise on the flop would have him think AK or KQ and it would not define your hand as suited connectors. I raise this flop 100 % of the time and hope to make str8 obviously and not flush. Although if flush hits I am obviously not disapointed. A 3x raise on flop looks much more like TPTK then suited connectors. Although I agree a fold on river is not out of the question. I just think if you played it a little stronger from the beginning you might have a better idea for his range of hands.

As stated in OP, against blank faced villian raising is my standard line. I'd been playing second pair, TP and one ace high passively behind and wanted to show a non-marginal hand played at the same speed as the hands I was trying to keep the pot small.Edit: Also, I don't think making my hand look like TPTK makes it easier to fold this.

[channjalen2003 0]

As stated in OP, against blank faced villian raising is my standard line. I'd been playing second pair, TP and one ace high passively behind and wanted to show a non-marginal hand played at the same speed as the hands I was trying to keep the pot small.Edit: Also, I don't think making my hand look like TPTK makes it easier to fold this.

I said raising flop would make it easier to fold because you had gained more information. By raising it might make your hand more diguised.

[Scott3705 0]

I said raising flop would make it easier to fold because you had gained more information. By raising it might make your hand more diguised.

I must be dyslexic. I'm reading: Raising the flop makes it easier to sniff out a larger flush which makes a fold eaiser. While at the same time, raising the flop makes my hand look less like a flush and more like top pair... subsequently widening the range of hands that will push at me to include a ton of non-flush hands which would make it harder to fold a flush.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I must be dyslexic. I'm reading: Raising the flop makes it easier to sniff out a larger flush which makes a fold eaiser. While at the same time, raising the flop makes my hand look less like a flush and more like top pair... subsequently widening the range of hands that will push at me to include a ton of non-flush hands which would make it harder to fold a flush.

I agree. If your style includes playing these cards, play them hard and make them pay off when you hit.

[NoBBiR 0]

I must be dyslexic. I'm reading: Raising the flop makes it easier to sniff out a larger flush which makes a fold eaiser. While at the same time, raising the flop makes my hand look less like a flush and more like top pair... subsequently widening the range of hands that will push at me to include a ton of non-flush hands which would make it harder to fold a flush.

[channjalen2003 0]

I must be dyslexic. I'm reading: Raising the flop makes it easier to sniff out a larger flush which makes a fold eaiser. While at the same time, raising the flop makes my hand look less like a flush and more like top pair... subsequently widening the range of hands that will push at me to include a ton of non-flush hands which would make it harder to fold a flush.

Yes if you raise the flop and he cold calls a big raise you can put him on a higher flush as opposed to a set. Then if he is still firing huge bets when flush hits you are probably beat. Not Dyslexic maybe clueless though.

[Scott3705 0]

Yes if you raise the flop and he cold calls a big raise you can put him on a higher flush as opposed to a set. Then if he is still firing huge bets when flush hits you are probably beat. Not Dyslexic maybe clueless though.

But i raised which looks like top pair??? The flush hits, he checks, i bet and he raises, i'm beat then? Why if the raise at the turn different than the river? They need the same strength as a value bet. I accept differences on how to play a hand. As said for the 4th time this thread, this is not standard for me. I was exploring what acid knight hit on, in that i can not play only sets and draws fast and still look to playa ton of hand behind this guy while trying to control the pot with marginal hands. I just picked up on the, raise the flop, because it doesn't look like a flush but it helps u fold your flush. Really one of the stupidest circular arguments i've seen on here since Smash. (And yes, i contend he made himself look silly when he stumbled out of the LHE forum.)

[nomad_monad 0]

Hm. This is a good hand.First question - let's say you raise the turn. Are you folding to a reraise? My guess is with a draw to the mortal nuts, probably not. In that sense, a turn raise has no value to you in informational terms and it's strictly for value. So the next question is - is the value gained from having him call/push when he has a set or a good redraw outweighed by being able to get a bunch of cheap/free showdowns (or bluff on the river) against the villain by establishing a metagame pattern? Against this guy it sounds like it.Last question - have you called down with a hand like this and then raised on the river? If you haven't, I think you're beat, but I'm not sure I could fold because of the price. Villain basically pots two streets and then puts out a small bet on the river. You've been calling down light so this is all he probably thinks you can call. It might be a blocking bet with a made hand, but that gets eliminated once he reraises instead of calls. He can't have air either since he would've fired the river large. I just can't see him shoving with a str8 (or a smaller flush) either because while you've been calling light I'm assuming you haven't been raising the river light. If you have, I snap call, as counter-intuitive as that sounds. Once your hand enters the hand range he could put you on, he should bet the river harder once you call the turn. Thus when he reraises, there's a greater likelihood that he's trying to move you off a medium flush with a made hand that he's decided to turn into a bluff.

[Scott3705 0]

Hm. This is a good hand.Last question - have you called down with a hand like this and then raised on the river? If you haven't, I think you're beat, but I'm not sure I could fold because of the price. Villain basically pots two streets and then puts out a small bet on the river. You've been calling down light so this is all he probably thinks you can call. It might be a blocking bet with a made hand, but that gets eliminated once he reraises instead of calls. He can't have air either since he would've fired the river large. I just can't see him shoving with a str8 (or a smaller flush) either because while you've been calling light I'm assuming you haven't been raising the river light. If you have, I snap call, as counter-intuitive as that sounds. Once your hand enters the hand range he could put you on, he should bet the river harder once you call the turn. Thus when he reraises, there's a greater likelihood that he's trying to move you off a medium flush with a made hand that he's decided to turn into a bluff.

results don't make any sense here and revealing probably won't skew any form of additional points anyone wants to make, although I think we're probably done.thinking about it, I had raised a blocking bet about 5-6 orbits prior. I had been calling him light, but had showed a willingness to fold to 3-bets, which is where I think this river bet came from. I sort of thought he came to the conclusion that I had made a smallish 2 pair hand and was trying to make a thinnish value raise that couldn't call the his bet. (Basically like you said, turning his one pair into a bluff). I called given the price and given the sort of adverserial way we had been going at it.Villian shows up with 96 of diamonds here and I honestly was just floored. I really would have liked to know what he was thinking, but he got up right away. Like I said, I doubt results bring any meaningul insight here.