Set Of Queens On Button Vs Experienced Lag

[whiterice714 0]

home game last nightblinds $0.25/$0.50combination of a few calling station donks, one slightly better than the other, a TAG who's often a little toooo tight... a goood and experienced LAG... and a semi passive tighty... and a few other decent players... nothing too crazy, and 3 of us usually do well in this game, despite stupid horrible suck outs by two, three, & four outers because of the calling stations when they go on heaters... i'm not in this hand, i fold rags UTG & am directly to the left of villain in BB who shows me his hand PF... i'm posting from hero's point of viewhero is button w/ QQ (suits not relevant)relative stacks:villain - ~ 90 calling station - ~ 25 - 30hero - ~ 60i fold utg, 3 limps to hero who makes it $2.50 (standard for table)villain says "wow, i think ima hafta one time this..." (history: we're friends for years, hero villain & i, hero & villain have been playing vs eachother for about 5 years on regular basis, reads very good, familiar w/ eachother's playing styles & tendencies, and occasionally we enjoy bad beating the shyt out of eachother)and calls the additional $2...MP calls $2folds to the calling station who holds true to her style of (i'm assuming?) always thinking "they're bluffing" 4 players to flop pot= $10.25flop -K Q 10 rainbow (one spade, forget which one)villain checks, donk checks, hero makes it $3villain makes it $8 to go, MP folds, donk calls, hero pauses for a second, the donk says "he's worried that i called" (obv not, she's stupid and i point out that he's worried he just got CHECK RAISED, a play which she still seems oblivious to, not the fact that she called... hell, she always calls, she could have 7 9 looking for the straight & i'm not kidding) and finally completes...3 players to turn pot = $34.25turn-3s adds a flush draw to the board...villain checks, donk checks, hero makes it $12villain shoves... *EDIT* calling station dumps it w/ a displeased look on her face.... hero to close action heads up... *EDIT* hero?????hero has roughly 30-40 behind, perhaps a little more... sorry the stack sizes aren't dead accurate, no hand history to confirm... and i didn't count chip by chip....LAG is known as somewhat of a maniac & is capable of making moves w/ less than marginal hands in less than marginal situations if he senses weakness... because of this he gets paid in full when he has a hand as strong as he's always representing... however, he's deffinitely not an idiot... speculation on all streets...we already know, the flop bet is too weak, i believe it was designed to extract value?... the double check raise is probably the only reason he hasn't hellmuthed his chips in already...results to come

[rdtedm 0]

home game last nightblinds $0.25/$0.50combination of a few calling station donks, one slightly better than the other, a TAG who's often a little toooo tight... a goood and experienced LAG... and a semi passive tighty... and a few other decent players... nothing too crazy, and 3 of us usually do well in this game, despite stupid horrible suck outs by two, three, & four outers because of the calling stations when they go on heaters... i'm not in this hand, i fold rags UTG & am directly to the left of villain in BB who shows me his hand PF... i'm posting from hero's point of viewhero is button w/ QQ (suits not relevant)relative stacks:villain - ~ 90 calling station - ~ 25 - 30hero - ~ 60i fold utg, 3 limps to hero who makes it $2.50 (standard for table)villain says "wow, i think ima hafta one time this..." (history: we're friends for years, hero villain & i, hero & villain have been playing vs eachother for about 5 years on regular basis, reads very good, familiar w/ eachother's playing styles & tendencies, and occasionally we enjoy bad beating the shyt out of eachother)and calls the additional $2...MP calls $2folds to the calling station who holds true to her style of (i'm assuming?) always thinking "they're bluffing" 4 players to flop pot= $10.25flop -K Q 10 rainbow (one spade, forget which one)villain checks, donk checks, hero makes it $3villain makes it $8 to go, MP folds, donk calls, hero pauses for a second, the donk says "he's worried that i called" (obv not, she's stupid and i point out that he's worried he just got CHECK RAISED, a play which she still seems oblivious to, not the fact that she called... hell, she always calls, she could have 7 9 looking for the straight & i'm not kidding) and finally completes...3 players to turn pot = $34.25turn-3s adds a flush draw to the board...villain checks, donk checks, hero makes it $12villain shoves... *EDIT* calling station dumps it w/ a displeased look on her face.... hero to close action heads up... *EDIT* hero?????hero has roughly 30-40 behind, perhaps a little more... sorry the stack sizes aren't dead accurate, no hand history to confirm... and i didn't count chip by chip....LAG is known as somewhat of a maniac & is capable of making moves w/ less than marginal hands in less than marginal situations if he senses weakness... because of this he gets paid in full when he has a hand as strong as he's always representing... however, he's deffinitely not an idiot... speculation on all streets...we already know, the flop bet is too weak, i believe it was designed to extract value?... the double check raise is probably the only reason he hasn't hellmuthed his chips in already...results to come

The weakest I see villain making this play with is KQ/K-10, but obv 10-10 and KK are possible, as with AJ. Tough spot.

[whiterice714 0]

The weakest I see villain making this play with is KQ/K-10, but obv 10-10 and KK are possible, as with AJ. Tough spot.

i swear i saw his soul fall out of his body when villain said "all in"i've personally never seen somebody look so sick @ the table before... i literally expected chucks to hit the felt, he almost turned green...

[woguy213 0]

Curious as to why he wasn't more nervous about AJ, J9 when he bet that turn? I'd have a really tough time with this. Villain's range is AJ, J9, KQ, Q10, AK, 10-10...I think it's VERY rare that he's bluffing here. The fact that he said "i'm a hafta one time this" pre-flop is unusual, and I'm not sure what that means. You said he was a thinking, good lag, so he's not check-raise bluffing you on the flop with that board. You have to call $25 (estimate) into a pot of now $82 (again, estimate since we aren't sure what hero has behind) so it's a little more than 3:1 and with 10 outs to the full house, I think you have to call. I just checked the odds, and you're a little less than 4:1 dog if he has J9 here (most likely holding based on what he said pre-flop?). Combine that with the fact that he could show up with two pair a decent amount of time, and I would call.

[Scott3705 0]

set over set sucks.

[whatgreatis 0]

home game last nightblinds $0.25/$0.50combination of a few calling station donks, one slightly better than the other, a TAG who's often a little toooo tight... a goood and experienced LAG... and a semi passive tighty... and a few other decent players... nothing too crazy, and 3 of us usually do well in this game, despite stupid horrible suck outs by two, three, & four outers because of the calling stations when they go on heaters... i'm not in this hand, i fold rags UTG & am directly to the left of villain in BB who shows me his hand PF... i'm posting from hero's point of viewhero is button w/ QQ (suits not relevant)relative stacks:villain - ~ 90 calling station - ~ 25 - 30hero - ~ 60i fold utg, 3 limps to hero who makes it $2.50 (standard for table)villain says "wow, i think ima hafta one time this..." (history: we're friends for years, hero villain & i, hero & villain have been playing vs eachother for about 5 years on regular basis, reads very good, familiar w/ eachother's playing styles & tendencies, and occasionally we enjoy bad beating the shyt out of eachother)and calls the additional $2...MP calls $2folds to the calling station who holds true to her style of (i'm assuming?) always thinking "they're bluffing" 4 players to flop pot= $10.25flop -K Q 10 rainbow (one spade, forget which one)villain checks, donk checks, hero makes it $3villain makes it $8 to go, MP folds, donk calls, hero pauses for a second, the donk says "he's worried that i called" (obv not, she's stupid and i point out that he's worried he just got CHECK RAISED, a play which she still seems oblivious to, not the fact that she called... hell, she always calls, she could have 7 9 looking for the straight & i'm not kidding) and finally completes...3 players to turn pot = $34.25turn-3s adds a flush draw to the board...villain checks, donk checks, hero makes it $12villain shoves... *EDIT* calling station dumps it w/ a displeased look on her face.... hero to close action heads up... *EDIT* hero?????hero has roughly 30-40 behind, perhaps a little more... sorry the stack sizes aren't dead accurate, no hand history to confirm... and i didn't count chip by chip....LAG is known as somewhat of a maniac & is capable of making moves w/ less than marginal hands in less than marginal situations if he senses weakness... because of this he gets paid in full when he has a hand as strong as he's always representing... however, he's deffinitely not an idiot... speculation on all streets...we already know, the flop bet is too weak, i believe it was designed to extract value?... the double check raise is probably the only reason he hasn't hellmuthed his chips in already...results to come

Well villian could have a wide range of hands here, I dont think he puts us on having a set of queens so our hand is a little under defined so he could be making this play with a hand we beat. The only two hands we should be worried about are AJ and J9, theres almost no way he has KK in this spot because he didnt reraise preflop against a button raiser. His likely hands that we can beat are AK 1010 K10 Q10 KQ. We can beat the majority of hands he'll make this play with and if he does have the straight we do have outs so I'm making this call.

[pokerinc 0]

set over set sucks.

Fortunately thats not the case here.q10, k10 or most likely sooted j9 for me in this spot.The flop bet is awful. And whatever it was designed to do, unless it was to get re-raised and then push, it shouldn't have been used. KQ10 board, there's no 'extracting value'. That's a board that says protect your hand against a j9a falling, or even a kq considering the two pair possibilities. Too many action killing posibilities.As played read a poker book. Cuz all flop and turn were both butchered.Hmm... just re-read action, now kj spades looks promising as hell. I call the turn. Odds are there w/ the range.

[whiterice714 0]

The flop bet is awful. And whatever it was designed to do, unless it was to get re-raised and then push, it shouldn't have been used. KQ10 board, there's no 'extracting value'. That's a board that says protect your hand against a j9a falling, or even a kq considering the two pair possibilities. Too many action killing posibilities.

i've since spoken w/ him in regards to why he made such a weak lead & he informed me he made the bet w/ the full intention of making it look like a weak cbet from the original PFR... he wanted a call or two, but he said the c/r slowed him down & he was hoping the board pairs the turn... once the turn bricked, & it was checked to him again, he felt there was no way he was beat as he'd have heard from a hand that beats him by now, so he bet $12 for value, not assuming anyone picked up the spade draw (although we HAVE seen stranger things from the calling station before, so who knows)when villain said "all in" the whole shyt changed, obv...he kept asking "did i seriously just get coolered for ALL my fuccing money...............?"also, in regards to set vs set, i doubt anyone* ever flat calls KK in the BB to the button raise w/ 3 to act behind him... it's obv impossible for him to have a set of QQ, and this particular LAG would most certainly repop w/ 10 10 as well i believe... he's fully aware he'd need to snatch the betting lead w/ such hands OOP w/ multiway pot & isolate...also he DEF doesn't play 10s for set value, he plays them for value... obv on cooperating boards... * i lost the min w/ J J in a stradled pot ($1) when i make it $4.50 to go in CO, the donkey calling station flat calls PF in the SB & flop comes A xx she checks i lead for $7.75 she flat calls, board pairs A on turn, check check, K hits river, check check, i show jacks thinking i'd have heard from something that beats me by now, but low & behold she flips QQ.... so lets say hero had made a real raise on the flop, say ~ $7 & villain makes it around $17-20 & the donk folds... (have no clue what she had, but if she didn't call the CRAI she didn't have too much, she'd insta call w/ like J 10 or even A K)shoving would be correct play yes? no? i can't see anyway you just flat call in that scenario..i can't make an argument for folding a set of queens on this board to this play vs this player... pretty much ever... unless of course he just CRAI (he wouldn't do that w/ such a deep stack... seen him make his share of overbets but not 8x the pot... wouldn't ever do that def knows what he's doing & i believe he's been a 2+2er for past few years as well)in which case i still probably make the call vs him... easiest way for me to compare him to someone everyone knows is Samy Farha in the fact that he'll play ATC, but he'll play them well... usually haha...

[Koana 0]

So it's been a couple hours since the last guess.You going to put us out of our misery and tell us the results so I can stop refreshing this bad mammer-jammer?I figure he has A9 spades and is hoping to buy that nice pot to avoid having to hit.

[whiterice714 0]

ONE MORE THING!i dont know how i forgot to include this, (maybe cause i slept @ 4:50 am & woke up @ 7:30 am & went to a job interview @ a debt consolidation firm and my brain's pretty much useless due to exhaustion.... i've only slept like 7 hours in the past 3 days)HEROS IMAGE IS NOT TAG!!!!more along the lines of solid but def capable of making a move... although he's nowhere near as aggro as our LAG buddy, & u probably couldn't properly classify him as LAG... i guess somewhere in between.... also, he'll usually bluff his bricked draws on the river... occasionally makes PFR w/ holdings such as 89o 57o & play them as if they're aces... including if he misses or hits the flop... his pf range is probably (bear w/ me) 22+, suited connectors, position, weak / strong ace (A10+) and broadways (KQ KJ QJ) in regards to cbetting, he most likely wouldn't make that bet on that board vs that many opponents w/ something like 67d... he's probably b/f like 55 etc...hope that helps a little bit more! sorry i forgot =X

[Scott3705 0]

also, in regards to set vs set, i doubt anyone* ever flat calls KK in the BB to the button raise w/ 3 to act behind him... it's obv impossible for him to have a set of QQ, and this particular LAG would most certainly repop w/ 10 10 as well i believe... he's fully aware he'd need to snatch the betting lead w/ such hands OOP w/ multiway pot & isolate...also he DEF doesn't play 10s for set value, he plays them for value... obv on cooperating boards... * i lost the min w/ J J in a stradled pot ($1) when i make it $4.50 to go in CO, the donkey calling station flat calls PF in the SB & flop comes A xx she checks i lead for

In a home game and I was coming at you with KK i probably make this comment.

wow, i think ima hafta one time this...

Even I don't know what it means.

[woguy213 0]

ONE MORE THING!i dont know how i forgot to include this, (maybe cause i slept @ 4:50 am & woke up @ 7:30 am & went to a job interview @ a debt consolidation firm and my brain's pretty much useless due to exhaustion.... i've only slept like 7 hours in the past 3 days)HEROS IMAGE IS NOT TAG!!!!more along the lines of solid but def capable of making a move... although he's nowhere near as aggro as our LAG buddy, & u probably couldn't properly classify him as LAG... i guess somewhere in between.... also, he'll usually bluff his bricked draws on the river... occasionally makes PFR w/ holdings such as 89o 57o & play them as if they're aces... including if he misses or hits the flop... his pf range is probably (bear w/ me) 22+, suited connectors, position, weak / strong ace (A10+) and broadways (KQ KJ QJ) in regards to cbetting, he most likely wouldn't make that bet on that board vs that many opponents w/ something like 67d... he's probably b/f like 55 etc...hope that helps a little bit more! sorry i forgot =X

I don't think hero's image matters much in this instance, unless villain is bluffing (very unlikely), he's clearly betting for value. We just need to decide if his "value" bet means a stronger hand than ours. Also, from the sounds of your replies, hero called, villain turned over AJ, and you and your boy have been trying to find a fold ever since.

[whiterice714 0]

well, i guess these are about the only responses i'm going to receive w/ this hand... results:hero tanks for 10 min & voices his displeasure at what a shyttie situation he finds himself in... and disgustingly mucks his hand... villain had J 9 off (that's my boy for ya, hahaha... ) and as i watched the flop come 10 Q K i'm just like "him... him.... wow... that sux for anyone w/ a hand"hence the "one time" comment PF... after flopping 2nd nuts & value check raising... he said he'd liked to have the calling station come along too but wasn't thinking of getting overly tricky w/ a non nut hand (it became pretty obvious, at least to me, that hero in OP had a set, i put him on kings or queens, after he leads the turn again.... villain says he didn't want to see river at all)just wondering what most correct play in heroes shoes would have been, based on villains range & our equity in the hand (i think i should get ahold of stove somewhere & play around w/ it a little) plus even if we're vs the straight we have 10 outs, wondering how often we need to be good in order to justify a call (like one in 4 times and need to be good 1 in 2 times and such etc...)idk, i guess i was looking for replies from a few different people that didn't come...editanyone know where i can pick up stove? is it download-able or a must buy?... i have no problem w/ pirated software ;] haha...edit

[No_Neck 0]

sorry bro this is just a cooler move on....

[sierradave 0]

If we're making the weak "c-bet" on that board, it's specifically to entice the LAG to make a check-raise play. Not a great choice, but one I could certainly see myself making and then regretting later. Hero must reraise the flop. Too many action-killers on the turn.As played, this is an easy call against his range. Hero has meaningful outs against all but KK, and is ahead a good proportion of the time. hard to avoid a LAG stacking us on a board of this texture.

[woguy213 0]

well, i guess these are about the only responses i'm going to receive w/ this hand...

For the record, I'm pretty sure my first answer was correct, when I said even though his most likely holding is J9, you still need to call because of pot odds and the possibility that he could have two pair there. A fold isn't terrible there though, and if he was more certain than I was that he had the straight (obviously he was), that's a great lay down. As for the play in the hand, if I were the hero I would have checked the turn, if you are behind you have 10 outs, and you won't have to risk your whole stack on the river if you miss. We are assuming that the villain will bet out, but at this point it will probably only be about $10-$15, if you hit, easy raise, if you miss, easy call. If you are ahead, you are way ahead, since you are in position you can still get max value on the river. It's another situation where you are either way ahead or way behind on the turn...checking is the best option.

[pokerinc 0]

If we're making the weak "c-bet" on that board, it's specifically to entice the LAG to make a check-raise play. Not a great choice, but one I could certainly see myself making and then regretting later. Hero must reraise the flop. Too many action-killers on the turn.As played, this is an easy call against his range. Hero has meaningful outs against all but KK, and is ahead a good proportion of the time. hard to avoid a LAG stacking us on a board of this texture.

exactly. As I said before the 3$ bet's retarded. You do it to get the check raise out of a lag, not to slow down. You DON'T WANT CHEAP DRAWS ON THAT BOARD.Pokerstove's downloadable.

[whiterice714 0]

If we're making the weak "c-bet" on that board, it's specifically to entice the LAG to make a check-raise play. Not a great choice, but one I could certainly see myself making and then regretting later. Hero must reraise the flop. Too many action-killers on the turn.

my friend told me specifically he was looking to get check raised here, & he said he intended on shoving after being check raised.... however, he hesitated for that (CRUCIAL) split second and didn't pull the trigger... he said he, like an idiot, was "waiting for a safe turn card" ie the board pairing... (he understands he played the hand improperly, regardless of making a hell of a laydown as he DID put villain on a straight and nothing else...)

As for the play in the hand, if I were the hero I would have checked the turn, if you are behind you have 10 outs, and you won't have to risk your whole stack on the river if you miss. We are assuming that the villain will bet out, but at this point it will probably only be about $10-$15, if you hit, easy raise, if you miss, easy call. If you are ahead, you are way ahead, since you are in position you can still get max value on the river. It's another situation where you are either way ahead or way behind on the turn...checking is the best option.

i totally understand this, but the only thing i dislike about checking behind on the turn is it seems kinda weak/tight to me... i mean, sure, we def dont have a nut hand... but we've got close to it.. only 3 hands are currently ahead of us, and the board is quite drawy (as the turn has brought a flush draw, regardless of how unlikely, and one of our opponents could have had some kind of two pair / pair & straight draw w/ suited spades in his/her hand & picked up a redraw for the flush) and i've seen our LAG friend here make the c/r play on the flop w/ complete air / mild to weak holdings before; and i've seen calls from the donkey that would literally make you puke on your stack... i think if hero checks behind w/ 2 opponents still in the pot he's giving up a possibly crucial free card unnecessarily... also, we can't always be in fear of monsters in the closet, and the fact that after the c/r the villain checked the turn (which turned out to be brillaint on behalf of villain) he seems to have given up almost... so tax the draws right? make them pay to stay & maybe you entice calls from hands like K 10 / 10 10 trying to fill up.... granted this specific time he ran into one of the nut hands & it cost him about half his stack... however let's say villain was holding something as meager as K J suited? he makes a somewhat semi bluff on the flop & then bricks the turn & reverts to c/c a reasonable bet but is aware of the obv strength of hero, likely to c/f river if he misses as he really can't beat anything if a 2 hits river... also, the donkey could literally have J4s in her hand looking for the A or 9... i think if hero checks behind in THIS possible scenario, he's giving himself an unnecessary chance to get out drawn... we seem to all agree that hero misplayed the flop... sure he may have gotten it in & been stacked by the straight, but the way the hand went down he should be 3betting flop about 98% of the time if he's going the weak cbet route... also, we'll never know if the river brought the requisite 3 K Q or 10 for him to have resucked out... if we get it in on the flop & we're behind, we have max potential to draw out by seeing all 5 cards...idk, maybe my logic's off... thanks for all the feedback though everyone, i just wanted some outside speculation on the hand & where better to do it than here...

[woguy213 0]

So last night I was playing and came across a similar situation to the OP. It was a live game, so the details are less than perfect. I had been playing very tight throughout my first three/four rounds at the table (it was a $3/$5 blinds game with a max buy-in of $200)...when I was dealt aces in late position. One limper to me - he was playing weird hands in odd positions - one hand he limped with j-4 off, called a raise, called a flop bet and turned two pair. He was a weird, loose player pre-flop and fairly tight post-flop. An unusual combination, and one that I can't imagine is a winning one. Anyway, I raised to $25 and only he called. (Pot = roughly $55)The flop came A-Q-10 rainbow. He checked, I checked. (I'm giving a gut shot a free look here, but that's only 4 outs, I wasn't too concerned about it.) The turn was a 4, and he bet out $25. I raised to $55. (pot = $135, it's $35 for him to call). I wanted my raise to look like I had AJ or AK. He asked how much I had behind (he had me covered) and I counted it out and said $215. (pot = $215+135 = 350) He immediately pushed. I said, "well, the only hand that beats me is jk" and flipped over my hand. No reaction from him. I'm not gonna lie, I thought about this post as the hand was going down, but I decided that unlike our villain in this post, my villain wasn't a good LAG. I put his range at A-4, A-10, K-J and Q-10 here (roughly in that order of likelihood -I didn't think he would have limped AQ). ) and since he has one of the two pair hands more often than KJ, I called. He turned over a-10 and was drawing dead. For the record, I am just posting this because I wanted to show that even though a straight was definitely in the villain's range, I had to call because of the other hands in his range. I guess this means this was a brag post?? Sorry about that.