queens

[David_Nicoson 1]

My friend is the hero in this hand. We're playing at Caesar's Indiana (which is such a nice room after the renovations for the WSOP circuit event that I question the point of my flying to Vegas). I'm going to get some details wrong, but you don't know any better.We're playing 7 or 8 handed 1/2 NLHE at 3am on Sunday morning.UTG is a player who just joined the table. He's waiting for a seat at 10/20 limit. He's very comfortable. He talks a lot during the hands. He has about $250. The cutoff is a maniac. (He put in the third preflop raise with KQo earlier.) He has about $200.Hero is in a blind with both of them covered. His image in tight/passive. Hero has QQ.UTG raises to $10. Folded to the cutoff.Cutoff re-raises to $20.Hero cold calls.UTG calls.Flop is 9 4 4 rainbow.UTG checks.Cutoff bets $15.Hero calls.UTG check-raises to $100.Cut-off folds.Hero ??.

[jimmybaker04 0]

I play in this game fairly often, maybe I will/have run into you there.

[jimmybaker04 0]

My friend is the hero in this hand.  We're playing at Caesar's Indiana (which is such a nice room after the renovations for the WSOP circuit event that I question the point of my flying to Vegas).  I'm going to get some details wrong, but you don't know any better.We're playing 7 or 8 handed 1/2 NLHE at 3am on Sunday morning.UTG is a player who just joined the table.  He's waiting for a seat at 10/20 limit.  He's very comfortable.  He talks a lot during the hands.  He has about $250.  The cutoff is a maniac.  (He put in the third preflop raise  with KQo earlier.)  He has about $200.Hero is in a blind with both of them covered.  His image in tight/passive.  Hero has QQ.UTG raises to $10.  Folded to the cutoff.Cutoff re-raises to $20.Hero cold calls.UTG calls.Flop is 9 4 4 rainbow.UTG checks.Cutoff bets $15.Hero calls.UTG check-raises to $100.Cut-off folds.Hero ??.

Looks like we're beat. UTG made a strong pre-flop raise and we should give him credit for AA or KK. He would likely not have opened raise with any nine and I don't think he would check with 1010 or JJ. There is a chance he is full with 99.I have no problem smooth calling pre-flop, but why on earth did we check/call that flop? We must lead out to protect this hand. Given the fact that we checked, the maniac made a usual donk play and weak led into us. We should have came over the top of this. Because we didn't, there is a chance that UTG is pulling a squeeze play and sensing weakness on both of our parts. Put yourself in the shoes of the UTG. He has no reason to put us on a hand like QQ. For that reason there is a chance he has noticed the same thing we have about the cut-off (he's a maniac) and wants to make a move. Our table image is not that of one to stop this play, nor is the way we played the hand. So there is a chance that we are ahead, but not enough of a chance to make it worth a call.We would have to call $85 to win $220-rake. Not bad pot odds, but it doesn't look Mr. Comfortable isn't done betting. This gentleman has committed about half of his stack to this pot, so he is not going anywhere if we call and then lead out on the turn. If for some reason we feel we are very confident we are ahead, then we have to push all-in. In that case our pot odds are reduced and I would think there is virtually no fold equity from a hand which we would not want a call.Time to make a tough lay down and move on IMO. We will lose this hand more often than not.

[Davin 0]

raise that flop. im guessing hero called pf in hopes of trapping his 2 opponents if a low board flopped. now that the low board shows up, what's he doing calling an underbet? hero's not going to extract much more money on the turn unless he's beat. raise that flop, isolate against co, get paid.and there's no way we're folding this flop. utg is most likely running a squeeze play. i'd do it in his shoes as well. he sees a weak bet, a weak call oop (after a weak call pf), and so he could be raising w/ any 2 cards. plus he could also hold an underpair and think he's protecting his hand. we call. if he has aces or kings... so be it.

[bcook823 0]

Your friend is certainly weak/tight. To smooth call the flop is weak IMO, but without a read on the UTG, who knows? If he is comfortable and chatty, it is my experience that these people are rarely tight players. The cutoff makes this horrible flop bet, and then he smooth calls. I would raise to, if I were the UTG.

[krup24 0]

Fold, new player, no reads, have to think we are dominated 99 is possible and I think he could also have KK.

[Davin 0]

two words:squeeze play

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

My friend is the hero in this hand.  We're playing at Caesar's Indiana (which is such a nice room after the renovations for the WSOP circuit event that I question the point of my flying to Vegas).  I'm going to get some details wrong, but you don't know any better.We're playing 7 or 8 handed 1/2 NLHE at 3am on Sunday morning.UTG is a player who just joined the table.  He's waiting for a seat at 10/20 limit.  He's very comfortable.  He talks a lot during the hands.  He has about $250.  The cutoff is a maniac.  (He put in the third preflop raise  with KQo earlier.)  He has about $200.Hero is in a blind with both of them covered.  His image in tight/passive.  Hero has QQ.UTG raises to $10.  Folded to the cutoff.Cutoff re-raises to $20.Hero cold calls.UTG calls.Flop is 9 4 4 rainbow.UTG checks.Cutoff bets $15.Hero calls.UTG check-raises to $100.Cut-off folds.Hero ??.

This is a tricky hand. Your friend played a little too cutesy and now he may have tricked himself into folding the best hand. I do not think that the UTG player has AA or KK. After the maniac mini raised and your friend called would the UTG really smooth call with either of those holdings?The ideal situation for aces or kings is an all in confrontation before the flop agianst one opponent and it seems like with a reraise and a call behind presents a great situation to reraise with aces or kings in order to isolate agianst one opponent instead of letting someone outflop him cheaply in a three handed pot.Because your friend played so meekly there is no reason to suspect that the UTG player has him read for a hand as strong as QQ. It seems to me that he is check raising the maniac in order to protect a hand like JJ,1010, A9s or even 88. He figures your friends call could symbolize any pair or a big unpaired ace, which is why he put in a larger than average raise to end the festivities then and there.The hands that scare me with this board are 99 or low suited connectors like 34s, 54s, 64s etc. The maniacs preflop mini raise and your friends call would certainly entice someone stealing with a small cards to happily call for 10. (Particularly someone, who as you already pointed out was waiting for a seat in a bigger game.)I think your friends play was all around weak in this hand. I hope he doesn't outsmart himself like this on a regular basis. He's essentially played his queens the same way I might play a pair of 6's in this spot. Call, check and call a maniac then fold to a reraise. I think that of the two options he left himself in this scenario, folding or moving all in; I would probably end up moving all in, but I also most likely would have played this hand very differently than our hero on every street. Your friends meek play counterintuitively shows the value of aggressive play. If he were to reraise before the flop and then the UTG player moved in he could either call or fold and feel comfortable with whatever option he chose. If he waited for the flop to bet his queens then he could fold if the pot were raised and reraised. Or he could push in on the maniac and fold to the UTG player. Either way he could set up a plan and execute it instead of just letting the other guys do the betting and then getting out of the way once anybody shows real strength. By playing the hand so passively he's trapped himself into a torturous decision and as Dan Harrington says "Use the kiss method. Meaning keep it simple stupid." Good luck

[Scott3705 0]

anyone think AA will fold to a reraise here?

[fopkins 0]

anyone think AA will fold to a reraise here?

You gotta be kidding.I like the call preflop. I hate the call on the flop. Raise it to at least $75, if UTG comes over the top, I could go either way. Obviously I fold if CO calls, but if he folds I think it is equally likely that UTG has TT/JJ or KK/AA. Who smooth calls a raise preflop with a caller with KK or AA? Hardly anyone.-fop

[Dratj 0]

reraise the q's preflop. Fold to the 100 dollar bet. Don't play a big pot without a big hand.

[Scott3705 0]

anyone think AA will fold to a reraise here?

You gotta be kidding.I like the call preflop. I hate the call on the flop. Raise it to at least $75, if UTG comes over the top, I could go either way. Obviously I fold if CO calls, but if he folds I think it is equally likely that UTG has TT/JJ or KK/AA. Who smooth calls a raise preflop with a caller with KK or AA? Hardly anyone.-fop

I'm throwing it out there. If you were AA here and saw some one cold call this bet and then reraise all in, you wouldn't take time to think about it?

[Davin 0]

reraise the q's preflop. Fold to the 100 dollar bet. Don't play a big pot without a big hand.

that's so weak-tight

[Dratj 0]

reraise the q's preflop. Fold to the 100 dollar bet. Don't play a big pot without a big hand.

that's so weak-tight

I don't think so, reraising the flop better defines his hand and protects it. He wants to go heads up with someone instead of three way. I agree with you though that hero should reraise the flop. but by playing the way he did, I would fold to the big raise because he has no clue where he is now. I still stand by Don't play a big pot without a big hand. John Juanda said it and I don't think he's weak tight. Obviously sometimes you have to bluff and such in nl but generally his advice is good.

[Davin 0]

reraise the q's preflop. Fold to the 100 dollar bet. Don't play a big pot without a big hand.

that's so weak-tight

I don't think so, reraising the flop better defines his hand and protects it. He wants to go heads up with someone instead of three way. I agree with you though that hero should reraise the flop. but by playing the way he did, I would fold to the big raise because he has no clue where he is now. I still stand by Don't play a big pot without a big hand. John Juanda said it and I don't think he's weak tight. Obviously sometimes you have to bluff and such in nl but generally his advice is good.

juanda is a tournament player and referring to tournament play, in which case this would be true. however, this isnt the case and if you played cash game the way you play tournaments, you'll lose a lot of money (just ask gus hansen) the only hands that are beating us are aces, kings, or nines. if utg does have one of these hands... then so be it. but we're also dominating 10's jacks and smaller pp's. plus, utg is raising over the the size pot, which is good when you have a hand to protect. but w/ a low paired board, no straight draws, and no flush draws, i dont see w/ aces or kings attempting to raise hero and button out of the pot w/ either of these two holdings (since button and hero would be drawing very slim)

[jimmybaker04 0]

anyone think AA will fold to a reraise here?

You gotta be kidding.I like the call preflop. I hate the call on the flop. Raise it to at least $75, if UTG comes over the top, I could go either way. Obviously I fold if CO calls, but if he folds I think it is equally likely that UTG has TT/JJ or KK/AA. Who smooth calls a raise preflop with a caller with KK or AA? Hardly anyone.-fop

I'm throwing it out there. If you were AA here and saw some one cold call this bet and then reraise all in, you wouldn't take time to think about it?

AA would have to give credit for a 4 or a house. What other hands could make this play? I don't think a bad player would be able to lay down AA, but most good players would. A back raise is the ultimate sign of strength.

[jimmybaker04 0]

reraise the q's preflop. Fold to the 100 dollar bet. Don't play a big pot without a big hand.

that's so weak-tight

I don't think so, reraising the flop better defines his hand and protects it. He wants to go heads up with someone instead of three way. I agree with you though that hero should reraise the flop. but by playing the way he did, I would fold to the big raise because he has no clue where he is now. I still stand by Don't play a big pot without a big hand. John Juanda said it and I don't think he's weak tight. Obviously sometimes you have to bluff and such in nl but generally his advice is good.

juanda is a tournament player and referring to tournament play, in which case this would be true. however, this isnt the case and if you played cash game the way you play tournaments, you'll lose a lot of money (just ask gus hansen) the only hands that are beating us are aces, kings, or nines. if utg does have one of these hands... then so be it. but we're also dominating 10's jacks and smaller pp's. plus, utg is raising over the the size pot, which is good when you have a hand to protect. but w/ a low paired board, no straight draws, and no flush draws, i dont see w/ aces or kings attempting to raise hero and button out of the pot w/ either of these two holdings (since button and hero would be drawing very slim)

These hand must protect and therefor would not have checed the flop.

[Dratj 0]

reraise the q's preflop. Fold to the 100 dollar bet. Don't play a big pot without a big hand.

that's so weak-tight

I don't think so, reraising the flop better defines his hand and protects it. He wants to go heads up with someone instead of three way. I agree with you though that hero should reraise the flop. but by playing the way he did, I would fold to the big raise because he has no clue where he is now. I still stand by Don't play a big pot without a big hand. John Juanda said it and I don't think he's weak tight. Obviously sometimes you have to bluff and such in nl but generally his advice is good.

juanda is a tournament player and referring to tournament play, in which case this would be true. however, this isnt the case and if you played cash game the way you play tournaments, you'll lose a lot of money (just ask gus hansen) the only hands that are beating us are aces, kings, or nines. if utg does have one of these hands... then so be it. but we're also dominating 10's jacks and smaller pp's. plus, utg is raising over the the size pot, which is good when you have a hand to protect. but w/ a low paired board, no straight draws, and no flush draws, i dont see w/ aces or kings attempting to raise hero and button out of the pot w/ either of these two holdings (since button and hero would be drawing very slim)

Ok, I see your point. However, if hero had raised the flop (which I agree with you he should have done to define the hand) and then utg reraises all in, would you give utg credit for aa, kk or a nine then? I think I would unless utg was a really crazy bad loose player which he wasn't in this case i think.Also, why do you think smooth calling the flop was a good idea?

[Davin 0]

These hand must protect and therefor would not have checed the flop.

are you kidding me???let's see... maniac reraises from the button preflopflop comes non-threateningmaniac is betting 9.5/10 times, utg knows this, so utg will check in hopes to c/r if he feels his hand is goodutg could definately be c/r-ing w/ ANY pp... no i take that back, he could be c/r-ing w/ ANY 2 CARDSUTG READS WEAKNESS IN HIS OPPONENTS AND IS PLAYING HERO AND BUTTON, NOT HIS CARDS. HERO MUST MAKE MAKE THIS READ. 3RD LEVEL POKER BABY!!!

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

anyone think AA will fold to a reraise here?

Not for the 130 or so he has left. Not in a million years probably.

[jimmybaker04 0]

These hand must protect and therefor would not have checed the flop.

are you kidding me???let's see... maniac reraises from the button preflopflop comes non-threateningmaniac is betting 9.5/10 times, utg knows this, so utg will check in hopes to c/r if he feels his hand is goodutg could definately be c/r-ing w/ ANY pp... no i take that back, he could be c/r-ing w/ ANY 2 CARDSUTG READS WEAKNESS IN HIS OPPONENTS AND IS PLAYING HERO AND BUTTON, NOT HIS CARDS. HERO MUST MAKE MAKE THIS READ. 3RD LEVEL POKER BABY!!!

You are assuming the maniac is a dead lock for a continuation bet. Let's not make that assumption. OP would be the only who would know and he mentioned nothing of it. UTG definitely doesn't know this as he is new to the table. That being said, he may not even be aware the button is a maniac. You are making an awful lot of assumptions given a limited amount of information.

[Davin 0]

These hand must protect and therefor would not have checed the flop.

are you kidding me???let's see... maniac reraises from the button preflopflop comes non-threateningmaniac is betting 9.5/10 times, utg knows this, so utg will check in hopes to c/r if he feels his hand is goodutg could definately be c/r-ing w/ ANY pp... no i take that back, he could be c/r-ing w/ ANY 2 CARDSUTG READS WEAKNESS IN HIS OPPONENTS AND IS PLAYING HERO AND BUTTON, NOT HIS CARDS. HERO MUST MAKE MAKE THIS READ. 3RD LEVEL POKER BABY!!!

You are assuming the maniac is a dead lock for a continuation bet. Let's not make that assumption. OP would be the only who would know and he mentioned nothing of it. UTG definitely doesn't know this as he is new to the table. That being said, he may not even be aware the button is a maniac. You are making an awful lot of assumptions given a limited amount of information.

i think you're still missing the pointhere are the highlights: 1. utg could be raising w/ any 2 cards bc he senses weakness in hero and button2. utg is playing the players and not playing his cards. he sees a weak continuation bet and a weak call. seeing that he plays 10/20 limit and is blowing off time at the 1/2 nl tables, im pretty sure that utg is plenty capable of making this kind of squeeze play, which is 2nd level thinking3. hero now has to make this connection that utg could be raising w/ any two cards and call in this position. this is known as third level thinkingi mean, if you still enjoy playing transparent poker in which you only bet and raise w/ a hand, all the power to you. but yeah... i guarantee you that laying down queens in this situation is -ev at most every poker table

[jimmybaker04 0]

If we except the premise that we are ahead (which I am not), we must push all-in. Calling would be plain and simple bad poker IMO.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

No replies..I raise approximately three hands out of the blinds in a previously raised pot; AA, KK, and QQ. That's what we should've done here, not even so much because of the Maniac, but because of the odds we're given an unknown UTG to call with A9, A4, 44, 99. Preflop raise to 40.I don't mind letting the maniac hang himself, but UTG is troubling to me. Hero needs to raise maniac's initial bet on the flop, to 40. If UTG comes over the top then we can't start thinking about folding. This is one of those hands that we need to push or fold and I like to think that when I misplay a hand badly enough to put mysef in situations like this, that I'm going to go ahead and lay it down to avoid losing more money/making more mistakes. Fold the flop. We've invested 25 and no more. We're likely behind and even if we're not, we've managed to dick it up enough that we're not in a position to really find out.

[jimmybaker04 0]

No replies..I raise approximately three hands out of the blinds in a previously raised pot; AA, KK, and QQ. That's what we should've done here, not even so much because of the Maniac, but because of the odds we're given an unknown UTG to call with A9, A4, 44, 99. Preflop raise to 40.I don't mind letting the maniac hang himself, but UTG is troubling to me. Hero needs to raise maniac's initial bet on the flop, to 40. If UTG comes over the top then we can't start thinking about folding. This is one of those hands that we need to push or fold and I like to think that when I misplay a hand badly enough to put mysef in situations like this, that I'm going to go ahead and lay it down to avoid losing more money/making more mistakes. Fold the flop. We've invested 25 and no more. We're likely behind and even if we're not, we've managed to dick it up enough that we're not in a position to really find out.

Could not agree more. :clap: