Betting Middle Pair Against A Possible Draw

[David_Nicoson 1]

Villain is in the hijack.StacksHero $248.Villain covers.Preflop ($3)4 folds. Hero raises to $5.50 with A 9 . Villain calls. Others fold.Flop ($14)T 6 9 Hero bets $14. Villain calls. Turn ($42)4 :heart:Hero ?

[mtdesmoines 3]

StacksHero $248.Villain covers.Preflop ($3)4 folds. Hero raises to $5.50 with A 9 . Villain calls. Others fold.Flop ($14)T 6 9 :diamond:Hero bets $14. Villain calls. Turn ($42)4 :heart:Hero ?

$30

[NoBBiR 0]

Where are you and the villain sitting at the table? Button, CO, SB, BB, etc?Yeah, I'd probably bet $32 on the turn and fold if he gets crazy.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Where are you and the villain sitting at the table? Button, CO, SB, BB, etc?Yeah, I'd probably bet $32 on the turn and fold if he gets crazy.

Villain's in the hijack. I'm in MP. Original edited.

[craiger 0]

No free card for villain. Hero bet $35, pricing out flush and straight draws. If villain calls, I bet any non 8/7, non diamond river. I would still bet if a Q or J came on the river (possibly pairing him if he had a straight draw), because given our line he can reasonably put us on a ten, and a Q or J may have improved us. But that's more read-dependent. If he raises, I would fold.

[BuffDan 0]

No free card for villain. Hero bet $35, pricing out flush and straight draws. If villain calls, I bet any non 8/7, non diamond river. I would still bet if a Q or J came on the river (possibly pairing him if he had a straight draw), because given our line he can reasonably put us on a ten, and a Q or J may have improved us. But that's more read-dependent. If he raises, I would fold.

This line has us putting in a lot of bets with second pair. I don't necessarily have any better ideas, as checking makes it difficult to know what villains bet means, but this could easily be JT, QT or KT. I guess with all the draws out there I bet/fold the turn, but I am not betting out the river (unless we hit an A or 9 of course), since the only reasonable hands we are beating are draws. Then we can fold/call a bet depending on how likely villain is to bluff the river and what kind of card hits.

[NoBBiR 0]

This line has us putting in a lot of bets with second pair. I don't necessarily have any better ideas, as checking makes it difficult to know what villains bet means, but this could easily be JT, QT or KT. I guess with all the draws out there I bet/fold the turn, but I am not betting out the river (unless we hit an A or 9 of course), since the only reasonable hands we are beating are draws. Then we can fold/call a bet depending on how likely villain is to bluff the river and what kind of card hits.

I think if a non-diamond river hits, after you bet the turn, you have the c/c unless you improve, which sucks because he could have a ten or he could overpair the river, but I don't think betting the turn and c/fing the river is good.I think you just have to man up and check/call the river if it isn't a diamond, IMO.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Turn ($42)4 :heart:Hero checks. Villain bets $18. Hero raises to $61. Villain calls.

Edited January 27, 2008 by David_Nicoson

[Sheiky 0]

Turn ($42)4 UTG checks. UTG bets $18. Hero raises to $61. UTG calls.

That's pretty impressive work from UTG

[David_Nicoson 1]

That's pretty impressive work from UTG

I have a problem with my brain being missing. I'll fix it.

[psujohn 0]

Turn ($42)4 Hero ?? checks. Villain bets $18. Hero raises to $61. Villain calls.

Is that what you mean?I prefer to bet/fold on the turn unless villain is very agg/bluffy in which case I like the c/r line. As played I c/f the river UI. If I bet the turn and get called I plan to c/c a reasonable bet on a non diamond board.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Is that what you mean?

Screw a pigeon. Yes, thank you.

[Sheiky 0]

I don't think i like the c/r on the turn because it makes it a lot easier for him to play the river and a lot harder for us.What are you going to do on the river?There's soooo many bad cards that can fall for us that he could have. Of the top of my head, a K J Q T 7 8 any diamond and possibly any heart. That's a lot of cards to dodge, and we're never going to be able to value bet on the river unless a black nine or ace hits, while we're going to have a hard time playing correctly if he bets the river regardless of what card it is.I really prefer betting $30-35 here as opposed to putting in $60 on the turn when we have to play the river OOP.

[psujohn 0]

I don't think i like the c/r on the turn because it makes it a lot easier for him to play the river and a lot harder for us.

You don't like the c/r because villain called which is results based thinking. Against the right villain (one who'll often bluff/semi-bluff if we check to him) the c/r is a good line in my mind. We're of course hoping he folds to the c/r.As played I think the river has to be a c/f because we've shown enough strength that villain isn't likely bluffing unless he's Jamie Gold.

[Sheiky 0]

You don't like the c/r because villain called which is results based thinking. Against the right villain (one who'll often bluff/semi-bluff if we check to him) the c/r is a good line in my mind. We're of course hoping he folds to the c/r.As played I think the river has to be a c/f because we've shown enough strength that villain isn't likely bluffing unless he's Jamie Gold.

You're probably right, however if a big part of his range is a draw here, and given the board there's a big chance he has a strong draw, he's not going to fold to the c/r is he?He probably should fold a lot of tens here i agree, but i've never played at this level so i cant really comment on whether we fold out better hands or not.Imo, the extra value we gain from charging a draw more with a turn c/r is cancelled out by the difficulty we have playing the river OOP.

[NoBBiR 0]

I don't really like the c/r unless you really feel like he is going to fold the turn almost always. Like Sheiky said, we're in a terrible situation for the river after he calls that raise. I probably check/fold almost every river. If he is at all intelligent, he's going to shove the river when you check to him, which is unfortunate, because we would really only beat a busted draw. The river is going to be ugly, I can feel it.

[AimHigher 0]

Why is it good to lead the turn here?Also what are we doing if he raises and what are we doing if he calls?

[David_Nicoson 1]

The river was a diamond. It went check, check and the villain showed 4 5 for a flush.

[NoBBiR 0]

The river was a diamond. It went check, check and the villain showed 4 5 for a flush.

Lol.

Why is it good to lead the turn here?Also what are we doing if he raises and what are we doing if he calls?

Because, we're betting for value. We're pretty sure villain is drawing, and we want him to pay. If we check and he checks, we lose value. If we check, he bets and we raise, and he shoves, we have to fold and have invested so much more than we wanted to. If we just bet and he raises, it's an easy fold as well, but with less loss.Also if we check raise the turn, and then check a dangerous river, we put ourself if a TERRIBLE situation, and we show tons of weakness.