Understanding Position Better

[akishore 0]

I once read a really useful piece of advice that has most influenced and shaped my understanding of position:"When you're out of position, you want to end the hand as early as possible."[note that "end the hand" is probably better understood as "end the action"]This has always made sense to me. Position is an advantage for the obvious reason that poker is an information game; thus, being able to act after others nets you more information, allowing you to make better decisions.The application of the above quote, then, is that in ending the hand sooner, you have to make less decisions out of position.An NLHE example: a good player opens in late position to 3 bb, and you three-bet from the blinds with QQ (or something similar) to something like 10 bb. He then reraises to 35 bb. Here is a spot where you have a choice between flat-calling and reraising (let's take fold out of the equation).If the stacks are 100 bb, I think this is a clear push according to the above quote. Why give your opponent an opportunity to outplay you on the flop for a big 70 bb pot when you can neutralize his advantage of position by ending the hand right away? Similarly, if you were the villain in the hand, you may have chosen not to reraise to 35 bb, and instead see a flop, because you want to be able to use your advantage for as long as possible (of course, this depends on the hands, etc.).But it gets trickier when the stacks are deeper. When the stacks are quite deep, let's say 300 bb, you have a very tough decision with QQ here. The pot will be 70 bb after your call, and you will both still have 265 bb behind. You can possibly reraise to 100 bb, but if your opponent now flat-calls, you are essentially playing blind on every flop, being commited to push, and if your opponent is good, he can exploit this pretty hard (I realize this is a complex equation with hand ranges and implied odds, etc., please ignore the trivial details of this particular example). So here, I think flat-calling with QQ is better.But yet this contradicts the positional advice!So I hope some of you see my dilemma -- playing out of position can be super tricky! Applying it to PLO8, I am struggling with when to reraise preflop with strong hands versus when to flat-call with them. So please share what factors you think contribute most (how deep/shallow the stacks need to be, how strong your hand needs to be, what tendencies your opponents need to have, etc etc etc) to your decision in general out-of-position situations.Thanks in advance,Aseem

[Chamonyx 0]

I think you are on the right track, Aseem.Following your logic for a PL game, you want to (max-)reraise OOP when it is going to let you get you (or your opponent) all-in preflop or when you lead out on the flop. Basically the hands that this applies to are your good big pair+low hands.However, if the stacks are deep, you want to disguise the strength of your hand for 3 reasons:1. Your OOP max re-raise screams "Monster", probably AAwx and so your opponent can play appropriately throughout the hand (lets leave level 3/4 considerations on one side for now)2. There is a high probability that your opponent will keep betting, so if your monster is still good post flop you can use his momentum appropriately, choosing your moment to slow him down.3. You can't acheive your all-in objective.So it comes down to the following when oop facing the raise: IF you have a hand you are happy to get all-in with AND the smallest relevant stack size is such that your re-raise or psb onthe flop will get it all-in THEN GoForIt and commit to the hand. Otherwise Fold or Call based on your hand. There was a good article on FCP on this from a NLHE perspective a while ago. I can't remember if it was by Daniel or Smash.

[navybuttons 15]

THE FIRST PART IS BEFORE I FULLY UNDERTSOOD THE QUESTION AND IS JUST MY THOUGHTS ON POSITION:i'm having a little difficulty in deciphering just what the question is so:two links to posts by gigabet that you may or may not find useful:http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...rue#Post4286167http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...rue#Post4423239i realize that the second one "choose life" is more about a freez out model, but you can gather a lot of good things from there.a few models:in PLO8 you raise the button w/ any four and the UTG limper repops you. if he's like 95% of the omaha players out there he's got a hand like AA3, AA2, AAx, AKK2, or KK23. if the stacks are deep enough you can call w/ any 4 four. while you know that you are not getting the current pot odds to call if you have 5789, the call is correct if stacks are deep.1. you know the shape of his hand2. he has no clue what you have3. if he's like most players he's going to overplay his hand and so you have huge implied odds and lack of reverse implied odds since you have a good idea of where he's at.obviously, omaha is a game of stacking people and position is how you do it.another model: (assume regular PLO w/ no checkraise. all bets are pot w/ super deep stacks)hero's out of position w/ A9JQ w/ Q9 of hearts on a board of 9sKh8h. hero leads and villian raises. hero calls. the turn brings an Jc. hero checks and villian bets. if hero calls lets look at different scenarios:river J: hero makes full house and bets pot. villian folds when he's beat and re-pots when he's got KK. river 2 of hearts: hero bets pot. villian folds when he's beat but re-pots when he's got the Ace flush.river 10: hero bets pot. villian calls when they chop and folds when he's behind.no matter the river card hero will not get paid off when he has the best hand but will only lose more when he doesn't. work this model out in your own game. something like "if i make my hand is there any hand that calls that i can beat." basically, being in position lets you get the value out of your hand while it minimizes the value villian can get out of his. beyond this of course is the free card and all the different types of free card plays.AFTER I RE-READ THE OP:go w/ what cham said, re-raise OOP when you can get most of it in preflop (nullifies your disadvantage obviously). Also reraise OOP when there can be no snow job, when it gives villian incorrect odds to call assuming you are going to shove no matter the flop. sure, he'll call when you're beat and fold when you're really ahead, but assuming this you can lay him too bad a price for his preflop call to be correct. i don't know the math of it, but i assume it wouldn't be too difficult. if you wanted me to figure out the chip models for it i could.sorry for that really long first part that doesn't really say anything.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

"You should easily fold most of the hands you play. PLO8 is mostly a game of homeruns. Big pots. Big edges. Big betting. You aren't looking to hit many PLO8 doubles. You don't want to mix it up in a lot of pots. You want to get out early, or be gladly shoving all your chips in by the end. The only way you want to hit singles in PLO8 is by making bets on the flop that nobody calls. ... If you win the pot, great, if you get called you back off and very seldom continue to try to win the pot... "

[checkymcfold 0]

good stuff for plo8, guys.for limit:oddly, while position is probably the most important thing in plo8, it's the least important thing in lo8. to be honest, i think that position matters less in lo8 than in virtually all other forms of poker. there are very few hands that become playable in position when they weren't oop, etc. (the few examples that might come up here are things like middle-high connectors, odd low-ish card hands when you think aces remain in the deck, etc., but they're so spot-dependent that it's very hard to list these kinds in precise terms). in lo8, and similarly, very few hands that become raises in position when they were limps UTG. with regard to raising in position, the biggest thing to consider when raising in LP is just plain value: do you have A2, A34, etc. in an 8 way pot? then raise the button for pure value. you're not going to thin the field from late position, so all you're really thinking about is inflating the pot when it's multiway enough to make more money when/if you win half.on later streets, position in lo8 becomes important pretty much only in terms of taking stabs at odd flops when it's checked to you (paired boards with one low card only, broadway flops, etc.), and making isolation plays with two way hands on boards lacking too many flush and straight draws. beyond that, position in postflop play is fairly straightforward--know your outs to whichever half of the pot and decide whether you want to raise out some hands if it's bet to you, raise for value in a hugely multiway field, or simply call to induce callers behind. in that regard, position doesn't really change the way you should think about a hand postflop in lo8. if you think you can take the pot down uncontested on a weird board, go ahead and fire away from anywhere unless you're at a table where people play any 4 cards. there. that was boring, eh?

[navybuttons 15]

there. that was boring, eh?

i enjoyed it, if only cause there was a new post in this forum.i will say that one of the most respected PLO8 players in a certain circle has a serious flaw in his game w/ respect to getting WAY too agressive with, and married to AA OOP.addagirl knows who i'm talking about, but i prefer she not say anything to anyone.

[checkymcfold 0]

i enjoyed it, if only cause there was a new post in this forum.i will say that one of the most respected PLO8 players in a certain circle has a serious flaw in his game w/ respect to getting WAY too agressive with, and married to AA OOP.addagirl knows who i'm talking about, but i prefer she not say anything to anyone.

OOOOH, who? *dances excitedly*

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

good stuff for plo8, guys.for limit:oddly, while position is probably the most important thing in plo8, it's the least important thing in lo8. to be honest, i think that position matters less in lo8 than in virtually all other forms of poker. there are very few hands that become playable in position when they weren't oop, etc. (the few examples that might come up here are things like middle-high connectors, odd low-ish card hands when you think aces remain in the deck, etc., but they're so spot-dependent that it's very hard to list these kinds in precise terms). in lo8, and similarly, very few hands that become raises in position when they were limps UTG. with regard to raising in position, the biggest thing to consider when raising in LP is just plain value: do you have A2, A34, etc. in an 8 way pot? then raise the button for pure value. you're not going to thin the field from late position, so all you're really thinking about is inflating the pot when it's multiway enough to make more money when/if you win half.on later streets, position in lo8 becomes important pretty much only in terms of taking stabs at odd flops when it's checked to you (paired boards with one low card only, broadway flops, etc.), and making isolation plays with two way hands on boards lacking too many flush and straight draws. beyond that, position in postflop play is fairly straightforward--know your outs to whichever half of the pot and decide whether you want to raise out some hands if it's bet to you, raise for value in a hugely multiway field, or simply call to induce callers behind. in that regard, position doesn't really change the way you should think about a hand postflop in lo8. if you think you can take the pot down uncontested on a weird board, go ahead and fire away from anywhere unless you're at a table where people play any 4 cards. there. that was boring, eh?

While I agree that position is less important in lo8 but it's still an important factor. It serves well at the tight games against weak players or at the short-handed games.Even in a loose game it's nice to be the last one to close the action. When the chips start flying before it gets to you then you should know you are drawing thin and be gladly folding your hands. Remember the hand KKTT I posted before? if I were smarter then I should had folded on the flop (although I hit the miracle on the river but it's a minus ev move over the long term).Let me give an example why position is helpful at the tight games against weak players. A weak player raised in MP, I called with A23Jss LP. BB & SB completed so 4 players saw the flop. K56r (I had a runner runner flush draw). Both Blinds checked and MP bet.I knew that MP would only raise with baby hands when he's the first player entering the pot. I needed to define his hand (see if he's got a made hand such as AA or hit the board or a drawing hand) and also my hand could go to war so I raised (There were some other factors such as pot size, getting 1/4'd, and my chance of hitting my highs I considered but I omitted here). Blinds folded and MP called.Turn bricked. MP checked and I bet.River bricked. MP checked, I bet and he folded.I won a decent pot unimproved. We all should know that position matters a lot in SH games no matter what form they are. Position is still position, it always gives you more information to consider your course of actions no matter in what form.Edited, I remember what smash said before so I will repost here.What are the 5 most important things in plo8?PositionPositionPositionPositionStarting handsWhat are the 5 most important things in lo8?Starting handsStarting handsStarting handsStarting handsPositionThe sceret to beating both games in my opion is, having a made hand with redraws. Those are the hands that will win you a huge huge pot. The rest should make you stay above the red line.

[ahosang 0]

Edited, I remember what smash said before so I will repost here.What are the 5 most important things in plo8?PositionPositionPositionPositionStarting hands

FWIW, I think that's an exaggeration...

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

FWIW, I think that's an exaggeration...

Of course, we know how smash posted... How about throw in aggression and deception? There could be a bunch more...