Overplayed Set

[breeze81 0]

Hey everyone. This is my first post in stragety. I have a few to post to see what you think. Did I overplay this? This would be how I normaly play this.Full Tilt PokerLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $1/$26 playersConverterPre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 2:heart: 2:diamond: UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls, 2 folds, 2 folds, BB checks.Flop: 2:club: T:club: 5:heart: (4.5SB, 4 players)BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, CO calls, BB calls.Turn: 5:spade: (4.25BB, 4 players)BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB folds, UTG calls.River: 9:club: (7.25BB, 3 players)UTG checks, Hero bets, CO raises, UTG calls, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.Results:Final pot: 19.25BBHero showed 2h 2dCO showed 5c 5dUTG mucks 7c Kc

[Moneyball16 0]

Fold preflop.I would raise the flop to charge the draws.The rest of the hand is standard.

[GamblinLeaf 0]

With UTG limping, I don't hate overlimping with deuces in this spot.I raise/jam the flop with two clubs on board.I jam the turn when I fill up.I (hope) I don't lose the max on the river and throw up a little when I do.

[breeze81 0]

I usually don't limp UTG or early position with pocket pairs, but need to get something going. I wasn't doing so hot at this table, so tried to force something to happen and boy did it.Right after I just called on the flop, I knew I messed up. Just could stop myself from getting cute on this hand.

[CoranMoran 0]

I will always limp with my dueces when someone has limped ahead of me.Folding here seems way too tight.And I have no problem smooth calling this flop with our set.Yes there are two clubs on board, but I don't think this should be our main concern.We have a very strong hand.And a T52 flop is not going to connect with many of our opponents.I do not feel the need to protect my hand here.I would prefer to encourage others to call along with their overs and hope they hit the turn.So I simply call this flop to encourage action.If the flop had come with an A, I would have gladly raised it up and expected to be cold-called by anyone with Top Pair.After the turn, we just need to push as hard as we can.

Overplayed Set

You, by no means, overplayed this hand.Once you made your full house, you were obligated to pump the pot as much as possible.I think you played it just fine.--CM

[breeze81 0]

I guess when I run into this kinda of hand against quads, I feel like I could have avoided it or that I made a mistake to cause this. But I should know by now that that is poker and I will run into hands like this, just play them the best I can and hope it doesn't happen too many times.

[Zach6668 513]

I wasn't doing so hot at this table, so tried to force something to happen and boy did it.

Your results for one session, or at one particular table are meaningless. You completely understand this, right?

I guess when I run into this kinda of hand against quads, I feel like I could have avoided it or that I made a mistake to cause this. But I should know by now that that is poker and I will run into hands like this, just play them the best I can and hope it doesn't happen too many times.

Set over set is a cooler. Pay it off. If you "get away" from it, you are probably missing value when you are ahead with your set.This flop is an ultra easy raise too. FD's aren't folding anyways, charge them. Really not close. We definitely have a hand worth protecting here.- Zach

[CoranMoran 0]

This flop is an ultra easy raise too. FD's aren't folding anyways, charge them. Really not close. We definitely have a hand worth protecting here.

If the FD's aren't folding anyways, then does raising really protect anything?--cm

[Zach6668 513]

If the FD's aren't folding anyways, then does raising really protect anything?--cm

No, but we have a huge equity edge vs FD's, do we hate money?

[antistuff 0]

you almost cant overplay a set. and you really didnt here.

If the FD's aren't folding anyways, then does raising really protect anything?--cm

protect is misleading...by making them pay more we are depleting their equity in the pot.

[CoranMoran 0]

by making them pay more we are depleting their equity in the pot.

No, but we have a huge equity edge vs FD's, do we hate money?

I appreciate the difference of opinion.Here are my thoughts on some of the ideas discussed:Gaining value from this hand.Against Flush Draws:Raising the flop would immediately win 1 extra small bet from FDsBut it would likely lose 1 big bet from FDs on the turn!- if we called the flop, UTG will often continue to lead the turn, allowing us to charge FD's 2 bets on this big street.- if we raise the flop, UTG will likely check, preventing us from getting in a raise when the bets are bigger, thus making it cheaper for FDs.Point: Raising the flop does not necessarily gain more value from FDs.In fact, it often loses some!Against the rest of the field:On this uncoordinated board, it is unlikely that many opponents have much of a piece of the flop.These opponents would be drawing pretty dead against your set.They are loose, so they would love to chase with some high cards.And if they catch a piece on the turn, they would love to call down with their 2nd best hand.But a raise on the flop will surely force them to fold.So if we wish to gain any value from these players, we obviously need to smooth call.Point: While the amount you gain from a flop raise vs a turn raise against a Flush Draw is comparable, you clearly gain more vs the rest of your opponents when you wait to raise the turn.Protecting our hand.On this uncoordinated flop, I think we can safely assume that the only hands that we should fear being outdrawn by are the Flush Draws.If we raise the flop, FDs will be faced with 2 bets.But they will be correct in cold-calling due to the implied odds if they hit their Flush.If we successfully wait to pull off a raise on the turn, FDs would then be faced with only 3-1 odds to cold call.And while they may again assume that implied odds provide enough incentive to call, they may fear that the turn could get 3bet or capped, killing their equity.Point: It is unlikely that we are going to get Flush Draws to drop out.But it is certainly never going to happen on the flop.Thus the idea of raising the flop for purpose of protection should not even be considered.My Conclusion:No significant reason to bet for protection.And you get more value from this hand overall when you wait to raise until the turn.--CM

[Zach6668 513]

That's interesting CM.I think what makes the difference is our read on whether the dude who bets the flop will always bet the turn. We need to raise the turn here, and I'd hate to have it checked to use, thus protecting nothing.

[antistuff 0]

maybe im playing semantics, but i thought protecting was making a bet that they cant profitibly call. you can't protect from flush draws in lhe because they always have the odds to call. however.....you do sometimes gain profit from making flush draws pay more to get there, although in a multiway pot its like fractions of a bet. you gain a lot more in this hand if you get someone with like j10 to put in two bets than if you get a flush draw to put it in. so i agree with coran all the way, the main concern is getting value and not protecting our hand. there is a huge ed miller thread about this on 2+2 somewhere. --------i dont like waiting for the turn to raise in this hand. if i think of a way to explain why i feel this way ill edit this post later.

[Moneyball16 0]

I also feel that raising the flop makes the hand easier to play if a 3rd flush card comes on the turn or river since people will call the flop for one bet with alot of hands but when you raise you can limit their holdings alot more.

[antistuff 0]

I also feel that raising the flop makes the hand easier to play if a 3rd flush card comes on the turn or river since people will call the flop for one bet with alot of hands but when you raise you can limit their holdings alot more.

you are not going to gain any information from a flop raise that is going to save you a bet anywhere in the hand. unless you think that someone calling two cold in front of you and then calling your bet on the turn is going to let you check/call that river if a third flush card comes, which you arent going to do anyway, you are going to bet for value.