Zealous Donkey 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 what do you mean "why questions"? science's primary aim is to answer why questions. that has nothing to do with invoking purpose, which is just the *assumption* of an underlying intelligence. i see no evidence in nature to justify that assumption.anyway, you are the one making an intellectual cop-out for the sake of convenience when you invoke god to "explain" what you don't understand.I don't think it is fair to accuse me of making an intellectual cop-out, and if I do make this cop-out then it is an inconvenience. Believing in God is very inconvenient at times. I, (and I assume many Christians) struggle with some of the same issues that you do. It would be easier (from my selfish perspective) for God to prove himself in a way that satisfied me, you, the guy next door, ect but this isn't the case. But just becuase he doesn't choose to do this is not enough cause for me to disbelieve. I think this is the exact point at which alot of athiests arrive at the core of their beliefs(or lack there of). Alot of the other arguments they make are so much smoke. Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Well said. They seem to think they are smarter then Christians, but they are the ones with the extremely pessimistic belief system.What is your point?Alot of the other arguments they make are so much smoke.What arguments? Link to post Share on other sites
Canada 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Here for example, "there doesn't have to be a purpose." How convenient, now he doesn't have to answer any why questions. He can say "just because thats the way it is". The fact is that you can't disprove a God. You can say things like "Wrong Way" that if there is a God then he is mean and not a God you would want to be with. You can argue that Christians are hypocrits, ect. You can say people who believe, are morons, ignorant, ect., but you can't disprove God. I really wish people would stop with such pathetic statements.Yes, you can't disprove God, but by the standards you are asking for you can't disprove anything. This means the fact that 'you can't disprove God' is nothing specialOh, and whilst you are so focused on purpose, what is the purpose of an eternal being? (Not necessarily God, but our souls for example) Link to post Share on other sites
Canada 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 For the record I have never remotely said that nothing is really worth understanding, and have not seen where one of the other evil atheists have said it either. It's hard enough to discuss things with you without you deliberately misinterpreting what we are saying.I think we have earned the right to be a little condescending. We have explained in excruciating detail over and over again the logical and observational mistakes that Christians constantly make. For the most part we might as well be talking to a brick wall because the quality of the objections to our arguments has hardly improved at all. We have never argued that there is no such thing as truth; yet another demonstration that you dont even pay attention to what we say anyways.If we have no idea, then prove it. We probably have demonstrated a hundred ways in which Christians and religious thinkers are incorrect. Yet I have still never seen an argument against atheism that wasnt easily refuted. At this point we are no longer having a real discussion. All we're doing is testing people's ability to ignore the opposing side of an argument. Show me one logical contradiction that Atheists commonly believe.Show me one thing Atheists believe that is not backed up by solid evidence.Until you can give us one argument, you are just demonstrating your ignorance with every post. Link to post Share on other sites
zzz 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 to use your simplistic train of reasoning, optimistic belief in a soul/afterlife historically has made people want to impose their beliefs on others - with violence if necessary, which tends to create unhappiness. so you could definitely argue that optimistic belief about an afterlife ultimately makes people unhappy."All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." -Albert EinsteinBased on experience I can say that having a view that we live forever makes me a happy person. Having a view that we cease to exist after physical death makes me (and logically most people) unhappy and scared. Is it not every humans main goal to be happy? It certainly is my goal. The smartest people are the ones that are the happiest. Can you honestly say your view on death makes you as happy as a view of eternal happiness? I don't think so.What is your point?What arguments?Again, my point is having pessimistic views makes people less happy then having optimistic views. It is foolish to hold pessimistic views because you are taking away your own happiness. Atheists on this board think they are smarter than Christians, but they are the ones who hold less happy beliefs. Link to post Share on other sites
Canada 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 "All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." -Albert EinsteinBased on experience I can say that having a view that we live forever makes me a happy person. Having a view that we cease to exist after physical death makes me (and logically most people) unhappy and scared. Is it not every humans main goal to be happy? It certainly is my goal. The smartest people are the ones that are the happiest. Can you honestly say your view on death makes you as happy as a view of eternal happiness? I don't think so.Again, my point is having pessimistic views makes people less happy then having optimistic views. It is foolish to hold pessimistic views because you are taking away your own happiness. Atheists on this board think they are smarter than Christians, but they are the ones who hold less happy beliefs.Why on Earth would you want to live forever?You do know what the punishment for the Roman soldier who killed Jesus was. Life unending.You cannot even begin to imagine what a torture eternal life would be. Endless existence without purpose? Horrific.Endless hapiness has no scale, no comparision and is meaninglessYour statements show you haven't thought about it in the slightest and that you are only concerned with aleviating your fear of death which is essentially just a fear of the unknown.Think about it for five minutes and if you have half a brain it should scare the living sh!t out of you.I know I am going to die and that it ends there. I rejoice in that fact and live life to the fullest because of it. This knowledge makes me happy.Seriously that was one of the most thoughtless posts I have ever read Link to post Share on other sites
zzz 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 For the record I have never remotely said that nothing is really worth understanding, and have not seen where one of the other evil atheists have said it either. It's hard enough to discuss things with you without you deliberately misinterpreting what we are saying.I think we have earned the right to be a little condescending. We have explained in excruciating detail over and over again the logical and observational mistakes that Christians constantly make. For the most part we might as well be talking to a brick wall because the quality of the objections to our arguments has hardly improved at all. We have never argued that there is no such thing as truth; yet another demonstration that you dont even pay attention to what we say anyways.If we have no idea, then prove it. We probably have demonstrated a hundred ways in which Christians and religious thinkers are incorrect. Yet I have still never seen an argument against atheism that wasnt easily refuted. At this point we are no longer having a real discussion. All we're doing is testing people's ability to ignore the opposing side of an argument. Show me one logical contradiction that Atheists commonly believe. Show me one thing Atheists believe that is not backed up by solid evidence. Until you can give us one argument, you are just demonstrating your ignorance with every post.Atheists believe in no life after death. That is not backed up by solid evidence. Except for the over 8 million people(according to Wilkepedia) with reported near death experiences, nobody has any knowledge of what happens to you after physical death. Until after you die there is simply no way of proving to others that there is life after death, you have to...I know this is scary for you...BELIEVE in other peoples experiences to have any kind of knowledge, eventhough it is second hand knowledge. It is logically contradictory to say you are smart yet you hold extremely pessimistic beliefs like that one."And in knowing that you know nothing, that makes you the smartest of all." --Socrates "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing" - Socrates""All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." ." -Albert Einstein--I think the quotes speak for themselves .Why on Earth would you want to live forever?You do know what the punishment for the Roman soldier who killed Jesus was. Life unending.You cannot even begin to imagine what a torture eternal life would be. Endless existence without purpose? Horrific.Endless hapiness has no scale, no comparision and is meaninglessYour statements show you haven't thought about it in the slightest and that you are only concerned with aleviating your fear of death which is essentially just a fear of the unknown.Think about it for five minutes and if you have half a brain it should scare the living sh!t out of you.I know I am going to die and that it ends there. I rejoice in that fact and live life to the fullest because of it. This knowledge makes me happy.Seriously that was one of the most thoughtless posts I have ever readLol. Sorry if the belief of unending happiness scares you. What about a belief that after you die you can experience whatever you want for eternity? Eternal happiness not your thing? Then mix it up by switching to a hellish realm for a while. Does that scare you lol? Link to post Share on other sites
Zealous Donkey 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 What arguments?Most of the arguments made by the atheists that frequent this forum. The fact is alot (though not all) want a personal appointment in which they can test God. They want to go outside point at a stick on the ground and say God if you are real move that stick. The more angry arguments are made usually because they didn't get an important prayer answered when they were young. Maybe they lost a loved one, that suffered alot. They became bitter ( which is certainly understandable) and now are still spouting their venom on believers. Why else would some of the people spend so much time on a forum waiting to get in each thread and post insult after insult. Why does it bother them so much that other people believe in God and/ or Christianity. Link to post Share on other sites
Loismustdie 0 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Most of the arguments made by the atheists that frequent this forum. The fact is alot (though not all) want a personal appointment in which they can test God. They want to go outside point at a stick on the ground and say God if you are real move that stick. The more angry arguments are made usually because they didn't get an important prayer answered when they were young. Maybe they lost a loved one, that suffered alot. They became bitter ( which is certainly understandable) and now are still spouting their venom on believers. Why else would some of the people spend so much time on a forum waiting to get in each thread and post insult after insult. Why does it bother them so much that other people believe in God and/ or Christianity. Because there is no sure thing, and they just want to continually remind you of that. Most of them are quite affable and good natured, and maybe a little angry, but not neccesarily at God, just the idea that they believe belief is dumb, and it's frustrating when what they believe is not the pervailing point of view- remember, as loud as they can be on this board in the real world they are the minority- most people believe in God, or a supreme being of some sort, and while thye will not begrudge you of that it still irks them. Crow also seems to believe that Christianity somehow impedes progress- considering all of the progress since I was born that sort of seems a little harsh- I always wonder exactly where we would be if Christianity wasn't in the way. I doubt he could even give you an idea, yet he believes it. Unsubstantiated belief. Sound familiar? Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo 0 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Again, my point is having pessimistic views makes people less happy then having optimistic views. It is foolish to hold pessimistic views because you are taking away your own happiness. Atheists on this board think they are smarter than Christians, but they are the ones who hold less happy beliefs.So would you agree that believing suicide instantly teleports you to heaven (no matter how you lived your life) is a better belief than Christianity? Link to post Share on other sites
zzz 0 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 So would you agree that believing suicide instantly teleports you to heaven (no matter how you lived your life) is a better belief than Christianity?yes of course. Any belief is better than the belief of eternal damnation. Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo 0 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 yes of course. Any belief is better than the belief of eternal damnation.Ok, then commit suicide right now. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Crow also seems to believe that Christianity somehow impedes progressnot christianity specifically - all fundamentalist belief is harmful to humanity's progress. if fundamentalist religion didn't exist the world would obviously be a much better place today.in the USA the fundamentalist christian right is working hard to impede science. that is an undeniable fact. what has been accomplished so far is in spite of fundamentalism, and we would absolutely be further along intellectually than we are now without it. countries that aren't dominated by dogmantic fundamentalism (japan, most of europe) are way, way past us in terms of intellectual/industrial progress. Link to post Share on other sites
zzz 0 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Ok, then commit suicide right now.Lol, i am not that ignorant. Hurting my body doesn't make me happy. Link to post Share on other sites
Loismustdie 0 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 not christianity specifically - all fundamentalist belief is harmful to humanity's progress. if fundamentalist religion didn't exist the world would obviously be a much better place today.in the USA the fundamentalist christian right is working hard to impede science. that is an undeniable fact. what has been accomplished so far is in spite of fundamentalism, and we would absolutely be further along intellectually than we are now without it. countries that aren't dominated by dogmantic fundamentalism (japan, most of europe) are way, way past us in terms of intellectual/industrial progress. I would agree with that to a certain extent, but only because Fundamentalist get more involved in Government and Law making than I believe is biblically neccesary, meaning in my mind they don't trust God enough. They want to be judge and jury of the world but forget that God is ultimately in charge of that. Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo 0 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Lol, i am not that ignorant. Hurting my body doesn't make me happy.Being happy is good.Having optimisitic beliefs makes you happy.Therefore, it is good to have optimistic beliefs.Agree?The most optimistic belief about the afterlife is that it is eternal, pure bliss, and has no entry requirements.Agree?If the above statement is true, then committing suicide is the fastest way to get to heaven. Agree?Committing suicide is good.Agree? Link to post Share on other sites
zzz 0 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Being happy is good.Having optimisitic beliefs makes you happy.Therefore, it is good to have optimistic beliefs.Agree?The most optimistic belief about the afterlife is that it is eternal, pure bliss, and has no entry requirements.Agree?If the above statement is true, then committing suicide is the fastest way to get to heaven. Agree?Committing suicide is good.Agree?Yes but total freedom instead of the pure bliss part.No. I believe if you want to destroy stuff (in this case your body) your thoughts will most likely take you to a hellish realm where you destroy stuff until you realize destroying things makes you less happy than non-destruction.Yes. Committing suicide is good. Not committing suicide is great. I don't think destroying things is the happiest/best option. Link to post Share on other sites
SilentSnow 1 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 The most optimistic belief about the afterlife is that it is eternal, pure bliss, and has no entry requirements.Agree?Wrong. For most of the heaven-oriented people, the most optimistic belief is that they and the people they like will make it to heaven but all of those they dislike or disapprove of wont go to heaven and will be punished. Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo 0 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 No. I believe if you want to destroy stuff (in this case your body) your thoughts will most likely take you to a hellish realm where you destroy stuff until you realize destroying things makes you less happy than non-destruction.That is a pessimistic belief. It will make you less happy than a more optimistic belief. Agree? Link to post Share on other sites
zzz 0 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 That is a pessimistic belief. It will make you less happy than a more optimistic belief. Agree?Not a pessimistic belief. It is a belief that explains how free choice would work. If you want to destroy stuff when your on earth logically you can conclude you would want to destroy stuff in the afterlife until you realize it is not making you happy. Logically a heavenly realm would be a realm where people aren't trying to destroy things.Bottom line is I believe killing yourself is good. Not killing yourself is great. Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo 0 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 So you're against scientific beliefs because they are pessimistic?And you're for your own beliefs because they're logical? Link to post Share on other sites
zzz 0 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 So you're against scientific beliefs because they are pessimistic?And you're for your own beliefs because they're logical?Sorry, but there are scientific studies showing it is more likely than not that there is life after death. There is also a mountain of "unscientific" evidence of life after death.And yes, i am against pessimistic beliefs. Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo 0 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 According to science, there an insignificant amount of evidence demonstrating that an afterlife/God exists. Would you tell people to not believe in an afterlife or god? Link to post Share on other sites
zzz 0 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 According to science, there an insignificant amount of evidence demonstrating that an afterlife/God exists. Would you tell people to not believe in an afterlife or god?Lol. Based on his scientific research, Pim Vam Lommel and other scientists strongly belief that there is life after death. The research can be found in the "evidence of life after death" thread. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 According to science, there an insignificant amount of evidence demonstrating that an afterlife/God exists.yeah zero is pretty insignificant. Link to post Share on other sites
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