When Is It Correct To Check Blind?

[Canada 0]

True, but look at the advantages.There are noneLet's say you darkcheck with AK. flop comes A J 2, rainbow. He bets (possibly a stab). Your now in a strong checkraise position, which will either get him to fold, or raise. He could call, but why? Slowplay three jacks? Call on a gutshot draw? Etc. 1. You don't know the flop is going to be AJ2r,2. Checking this flop is wrongAnd if he raises, then you have more information. Why? Well, now you know that he's bet, you raised, and now he's raising it a third time. If you would have bet the flop, and he raised, you have much less information. If he puts you on a bluffbet postflop, he can raise, putting you to the test. However, if he re-raises you a third time, you still have a tough decision, but an easier one than if you wouldn't of darkchecked, would have bet first, then been raised. You pretty much know he had a BIG hand (set, two pair at least). Only a lunatic re-re-raises with ******. A lunatic or a guy with nuts of steel.Yes you have more info but it's cost you more to get itGet where im coming from?And if you flop a set, your checking anyway (unless the board comes a freakish 7h 9h 10h).Rubbish, leading with sets is almost always a good thingAnd if it does come another heart, that's not only a scare card for you, but it might be for him too. Plus, you still have pair outs.As far as giving free cards, look at these examples.You darkcheck AK. Flop comes A 2 4 two spades. And he checks. Think.He probably wouldn't check a flush draw. Most people bet it, thus giving you a beautiful re-raise/allin move. Good players will often take the infinite implied odds on offer and check behind if there had been action preflop - which if you have AK there should've beenHe would check a set, thus saving you some money (because you probably would have bet this flop).Good players are not checking a set on a board that co-ordinatedHe would check a PP that didn't connect with this board (leaving him only two outs).Infinite implied odds again...He would check a hand like KQ, KJ, QJ, or any of those types of hands. If he did, then he's practically drawing dead.and again...He might check a weak Ace (A9 or A7), but even if he does, you still have him crushed, with him drawing to three 7s or 9s.True, he might hit a set (a 10 to 1 longshot off the flop), he might possibly check a flush draw and hit, he might jump up and down and singsong a broadway melody. But if he does check, giving himself a freecard, he's either drawing thin, or he has you crushed. If he's drawing thin, then your the favorite to win. If he has you crushed, you just might have saved yourself a bet (if not your money).So he's drawing thin or has you crushed? Wow, a ton of information you've gained thereGranted, this is only one hand and a few examples, but I think these types of plausible results outweigh the odds of getting beat WHEN you hit your hand.It should only be used in certain instances, and not when playing with amatuers.Regardless of your hand there are some flops where you should check so no loss there, however there will always be flops where checking is wrong, so dark checking is giving an advantage to your opponent. Your suggesting that we should only give that advantage to professionals!?!

Dark checking has tiny, tiny meta-game advantages and large negatives.Seeing the flop, seeing opponents reactions and then making an informed decision will always be the best play.Do it for fun, but in a serious game its FPS

[CitizenSpade 0]

There are none Thanks for the pointless, mundane remark. Right off the bat your showing your shining intelligence.1. You don't know the flop is going to be AJ2r2. Checking this flop is wrong. 1. Thank you Captain Obvious.I'm giving a best situation scenario. If it comes 492R, your pretty much checking anyway. This would depend on preflop action, but more often than not your checking, because you didn't connect. 2. In certain situations maybe. Elaborate, instead of making a simple statement and giving no other information backing that statement.Yes you have more info but it's cost you more to get it Exactly. Isn't it better than going broke? I'm pretty sure that was the point I was making. Let me check.....Yep, that's the point alright. Of course it costs you, but with this information you are far more likely to know your beat, thus saving you from going broke that session/tournament.Rubbish, leading with sets is almost always a good thing You've obviously read and overvalued Doyle Brunson's Super System.I disagree.With sets, all your fearing are straights and flushes. Even if those cards come, you have re-draw outs. Sets are powerful hands, and if you let your opponent catch up a little, it can prove to be a big payout. Think of it. Is your opponent going to go allin with nothing, or middle pair? No, unless he's a donkey. You have to give him a chance to catch up. The implied odds here are great. If he catchers up with AK, making top pair or top two, chances are in your favor of doubling up. Granted, there are times when the flop with come a freakish 7h 8h 9h, and you flop a set of 8s. You probably wish you wouldn't of darkchecked. Now he has a free shot at a straight or a flush. However, if the straight or the flush card comes, it makes your fold easier. IF your opponent bets the flop, you can call, hoping to possibly have the best hand or redraw with a full house. Plus, if and when you do make your boat, you can also pick up a boatload of chips if your opponent has the straight or flush.Good players will often take the infinite implied odds on offer and check behind if there had been action preflop - which if you have AK there should've been True, but I never said every time they would check. The majority do bet, even good players, because of the fold equity along with the odds of making the best hand on the turn or river.Good players are not checking a set on a board that co-ordinated True, but if he bets, you raise, he will do either two things. Call or re-raise. Either option gives you more info, thus making your decision easier than it would've been.IF he bets, you reraise, and he calls, it's easier to narrow down hands. If he reraises your reraise, or goes allin, again, you have more info, thus saving you money because it's pretty easy to figure out your beat.Regardless of your hand there are some flops where you should check so no loss there, however there will always be flops where checking is wrong, so dark checking is giving an advantage to your opponent. Your suggesting that we should only give that advantage to professionals!?! Of course. I never said "Always freaking darkcheck". I'm simply highlighting situations that you can benefit greatly.Your trying to twist what I'm saying, and it isn't working. A good player once said..."To beat a good player, I don't need to have a hand. To beat a bad player, my hand needs to be strong."I never said professionals. I said good players. However, it also has a chance to work on pro's too, as does any play. Your taking my comments to literal, as if this is the way i suggest you play every hand. Wrong.Bad player's don't compute the little nuances, like darkchecking, or even basic things, like "Oh my gosh he reraised me preflop, chances are greater that he has a big hand". Bad players move in anyway, because after all they flopped top pair with 7s 8h.Postflop plays work better on good players. Postflop plays don't work well on bad players, because bad players really don't know how to play.Again, I want to reiterate the fact that this play shouldn't be used all the time, or often. I am simply highlighting areas where it could benefit you whether you have the best hand or not. This, like all the other plays and strategies, should be mixed in your overall play.

[TheIceman71 0]

I agree with those who have said that "checking in the dark" is a position play. After using this move, your opponent now has to "act first" knowing that you have already made your play without seeing the flop. It seems to me that the dark check is used to either call or check-raise if your opponent bets. Doesn't make much sense to dark check and then fold unless your opponent pushes all-in and you cannot call him.

[Canada 0]

There are none Thanks for the pointless, mundane remark. Right off the bat your showing your shining intelligence.Hardly pointless or mundane when I follow my statement with numerous points supporting it. Congratulations on not recognising a structured argument when you see one 1. You don't know the flop is going to be AJ2r2. Checking this flop is wrong. 1. Thank you Captain Obvious.Yes it is obvious isn't it. It is also the single biggest argument against dark checking. You don't know what is coming so you don't know if checking is the best play. See if you can keep up this time... I'm giving a best situation scenario. If it comes 492R, your pretty much checking anyway. This would depend on preflop action, but more often than not your checking, because you didn't connect. Given that more often than not I am raising with AK preflop, I am continuation betting a 492R flop almost 100% of the time. Once again you support your argument with incorrect poker plays2. In certain situations maybe. Elaborate, instead of making a simple statement and giving no other information backing that statement.OK, lets see. You have what is likely to be the best, but still vunerable hand at the moment and instead of giving any other 2 cards the opportunity to catch up, I would rather get value. ABC poker reallyYes you have more info but it's cost you more to get it Exactly. Isn't it better than going broke? I'm pretty sure that was the point I was making. Let me check.....Yep, that's the point alright. Of course it costs you, but with this information you are far more likely to know your beat, thus saving you from going broke that session/tournament.You are missing the point. Yes, more information is gained with more bets, however by giving him the control of the betting he gets to dictate the size of the initial bets and thus the control the pot size, which in turn influences future betting. Pot size control is a crucial skill to being a winning player.Rubbish, leading with sets is almost always a good thing You've obviously read and overvalued Doyle Brunson's Super System.I disagree.With sets, all your fearing are straights and flushes. Even if those cards come, you have re-draw outs. Sets are powerful hands, and if you let your opponent catch up a little, it can prove to be a big payout. Think of it. Is your opponent going to go allin with nothing, or middle pair? No, unless he's a donkey. You have to give him a chance to catch up. The implied odds here are great. If he catchers up with AK, making top pair or top two, chances are in your favor of doubling up. Granted, there are times when the flop with come a freakish 7h 8h 9h, and you flop a set of 8s. You probably wish you wouldn't of darkchecked. Now he has a free shot at a straight or a flush. However, if the straight or the flush card comes, it makes your fold easier. IF your opponent bets the flop, you can call, hoping to possibly have the best hand or redraw with a full house. Plus, if and when you do make your boat, you can also pick up a boatload of chips if your opponent has the straight or flush.Yes sets are powerful hands and win more often than not. This is why you want to start building a pot early so that the final result is a large pot with a decent river bet that a weaker hand feels commited to calling getting good odds. There is that pot control thing raising its head again.Not betting out OOP results in either check-raises or donk-bets that set of alarms that will allow good players to get away from their hands.Also checking when strong and waking up later in the hand is the easiest betting pattern to recognise from novice players. However if you are betting your draws, your bluffs, your made hands and your monsters you give away a lot less infoGood players will often take the infinite implied odds on offer and check behind if there had been action preflop - which if you have AK there should've been True, but I never said every time they would check. The majority do bet, even good players, because of the fold equity along with the odds of making the best hand on the turn or river.I think you better review the NL strategies around closing the action before you go with that statementGood players are not checking a set on a board that co-ordinated True, but if he bets, you raise, he will do either two things. Call or re-raise. Either option gives you more info, thus making your decision easier than it would've been.IF he bets, you reraise, and he calls, it's easier to narrow down hands. If he reraises your reraise, or goes allin, again, you have more info, thus saving you money because it's pretty easy to figure out your beat.It's the whole info at a cost point with you allowing your opponent to dictate the cost again. Pot control. Learn it - it will make you moneyRegardless of your hand there are some flops where you should check so no loss there, however there will always be flops where checking is wrong, so dark checking is giving an advantage to your opponent. Your suggesting that we should only give that advantage to professionals!?! Of course. I never said "Always freaking darkcheck". I'm simply highlighting situations that you can benefit greatly.I never suggested you said that you should do it always. Also I've clearly shown that the situations you've created are obtuse and your handling of them incorrectYour trying to twist what I'm saying, and it isn't working. A good player once said..."To beat a good player, I don't need to have a hand. To beat a bad player, my hand needs to be strong."No **** Sherlock. Poker 101 - don't bluff fishI never said professionals. I said good players. However, it also has a chance to work on pro's too, as does any play. Your taking my comments to literal, as if this is the way i suggest you play every hand. Wrong.No, you said not to use it on amatuers. Someone who isn't an amatuer is a.... (12 letters, starts with a 'p')Bad player's don't compute the little nuances, like darkchecking, or even basic things, like "Oh my gosh he reraised me preflop, chances are greater that he has a big hand". Bad players move in anyway, because after all they flopped top pair with 7s 8h.Postflop plays work better on good players. Postflop plays don't work well on bad players, because bad players really don't know how to play.Again, I want to reiterate the fact that this play shouldn't be used all the time, or often. Try neverI am simply highlighting areas where it could benefit you whether you have the best hand or not. This, like all the other plays and strategies, should be mixed in your overall play.The cases you have brought up are longshots at best and as I said you've handled them with poor play. It's been my experience that anyone that starts a strategy discussion with "Imagine the flop comes..." is a novice that is addicted to FPS. All through your arguments you discuss getting it all-in and going broke. NLHE is not about all the big plays and stacking your opponents, it's more about the correct plays for the minor hands and squeezing the most value or limiting the costs out of marginal situations.You obviously have a ton of fundamentals to learn, pot control, value betting, betting patterns, blocking bets etc. I suggest you peruse the strategy section a fair bit. Whilst you are there keep an eye out for my posts, there should be a few hundred. If you can find one you disagree with feel free to bring it to my attention and I can show you where your thinking is wrong again.

[BlowUpPoker.com 0]

I check the flop dark if I can't remember my hole cards.I instantly fold to any dark check, or I quickly dark check right back - to teach them a lesson.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Checking in the dark is usually a bad idea. If you flop a real hand on a dangerous board, you've forfeited the opportunity to protect it if your opponent checks behind you.It is good just to throw people off a little bit. Sometimes I will raise and a tricky/aggressive player will call me and have position. To vary my play and throw him off a little, I will sometimes check in the dark after raising preflop. You have to keep in mind that most people probably check dark after calling a raise out of position with a small to medium pocket pair. They figure their dark check will get their opponent to bet. It really does nothing. Their opponent was going to bet or check regardless of whether you looked at the flop and checked, or did it in the dark.I'm convinced that for 95% of players, checking blind is -EV, just as straddling is. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it every now and then, and it doesn't mean that it's not good for the game.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Checking in the dark sometimes gives you position. I don't do it. I like to see the cards I'm acting on.